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The future of energy generation and storage

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Smurf1976 said:
I'm not against WHS (formerly known as OH&S - that's safety in layman's terms) by any means indeed I'm strongly in favour of it. But we've reached the point where certainly some do see that the best way to manage risk is to remove it altogether. In other words, become purely an administrative operation and pay someone else big $ to take on the risk.
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The deciding Risk Score derived from a Risk Matrix by adding Likelihood and Consequence scores is so subjective in that two people will have a different score. A WHS officer sees risk in a different light to the workers doing the work. The WHS officer sees all energy sources as a risk and shall be controlled with Isolation, Lockout and de-energising, draining, testing for dead etc. This is of course absolutely necessary in many cases BUT where I believe they have reduced productivity by up to 20% in our case is by failing in the risk assessment. Failing because all energy sources are deemed a risk and shall be isolated, locked out and de-energised including the equipment workers are required to use for the job. So locks on - sign on, locks off - sign off, locks on - sign on, locks off - sign off all day everyday. Stupid and they have gone too far the other way. End result will be production has dropped off and the upper management wonder why. No worries, everyone's doing less but staying extremely safe. What a joke on themselves.
 
sptrawler said:
It would, in some ways, improve productivity if maintenance were carrying out their own isolations.
In many companies I've worked for, electrical isolations are carried out by electrical personel.
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Leckies deal with electricity, Fitters deal with mechanical and welders deal with welding. Up top sees human beings as a drag on company profits and numbers need to be reduced at every (created) opportunity.
 
Well it seems that even the Liberals are finally waking up:

"the Federal Government warns privatisation and offshoring of critical infrastructure has raised dangers of “sabotage, espionage and coercion"

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...t/news-story/a7617a1e2c27e30416c4098b3c0bd547

No surprises there, many have been worried about this sort of outcome right from the start. Risks of sabotage, lack of investment putting supply in jeopardy, operators who don't even know what protection settings are and certainly not how to get them right, prices going up and making Australia uncompetitive internationally.

Remind me again what the point of privatisation and de-regulation was supposed to be? Hasn't worked too well that's for sure.
 
Smurf1976 said:
"the Federal Government warns privatisation and offshoring of critical infrastructure has raised dangers of “sabotage, espionage and coercion"
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This was a "premium article" and therefore unreadable by paupers like me, but The Liberals are warning ?

They are the silly duffers doing all the privatisation in the first place.

Shees !
 
SirRumpole said:
This was a "premium article" and therefore unreadable by paupers like me, but The Liberals are warning ?
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Well it's the Australian Government doing the worrying but at the moment that's a Liberal (well, OK, Coalition) one at the moment. Labor would possibly do the same of course, but I mention the party given the irony of a Liberal government suddenly realising the problem with selling our key infrastructure to foreign owners (especially foreign governments as is often the case).

Anyway, the basic concern seems to be that having it all in foreign hands exposes us to the risk of others doing bad things (eg espionage, sabotage) which leave us literally in the dark. All of a sudden energy security (also ports and other key infrastructure) is a priority it seems - and that comes after 20 years of doing the exact opposite and creating the situation we have now.

I think there's a bigger force at work here and it's starting to become apparent. Rising nationalism, Brexit, Trump etc, government stepping in to save a factory in Victoria and so on. The direction we've been heading in for the past 20+ years seems to be reversing rather quickly it seems.
 
SirRumpole said:
This was a "premium article" and therefore unreadable by paupers like me, but The Liberals are warning ?

They are the silly duffers doing all the privatisation in the first place.

Shees !
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Yeah, like the Labor Party sold of the Commonwealth Bank.
Beattie in Queensland sold off the Golden casket that paid for the hospitals.
One is bad as the other....But in in most cases where the Liberals have sold assets. it was to pay for Labor's overspending and high debt.
 
noco said:
One is bad as the other....
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No argument from me there and I'll be critical of any political party which does things lacking foresight as to the eventual consequences. Labor and Liberal are both guilty there, no question, although in the case of the power industry in general the Liberals have done more of it hence my mentioning that party.

But to be fair, whilst it was Liberal state governments which did (or tried to do) most of the selling they did so with the full backing and indeed strong urging of a Labor federal government at the start (and more recently a Coalition federal government).

Both are guilty although the Liberal party seems more ideologically committed to the concept so I'm surprised to see them reconsidering so quickly. I honestly thought anything like that would be decades away.
 
Smurf1976 said:
I think there's a bigger force at work here and it's starting to become apparent. Rising nationalism, Brexit, Trump etc, government stepping in to save a factory in Victoria and so on. The direction we've been heading in for the past 20+ years seems to be reversing rather quickly it seems.
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Our governments have had some major scares in the last 10 years or so.

The hacking of the BOM and the census, the ASIO building that was built by foreign contractors and had to be ripped apart to remove all the spy equipment, the importation of cheap steel from overseas that has proven to be not the required standard have all added up and made people realise that we live in an increasingly dangerous world and the only people we can really trust are those who live here (and then there are surreptitious foreign agents in ethnic communities as well).

It's taken some time to realise that globalisation has failed because economics is inseperable from politics.

Hopefully we will learn from our mistakes and learn to do things for ourselves instead of outsourcing to unreliable foreign suppliers.
 
"The only people we can trust are those who live here.." Sir Rumpole

It was always clear that the privatisation of power, transport and other infrastructure was going to result in cutting of staff and maintenance and essentially maximising current profits. The theory that this would result in a cheaper but more efficient and effective service was/is a myth. Management and capital can swallow far more savings than are imaginable on heaven or earth.

As far as trusting the people who live here. Frankly if someone wants to hack the computer network of a power or transport company it doesn't matter who or where the owners are located does it ? As far as dodgy products from overseas ? In fact it is the Australian builders who do not make sure the products are fit for purpose or installed properly. For example the huge new scandal showing it's face in Australia is Leaky buildings. Basically thousands of apartments built in the last 10-20 years that have chronic water leak problems that will ultimately destroy the value of the whole structure.

Our own local sharps.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbournes-faulty-building-crisis-20161217-gtdbb0.html:http/
http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au/news/$100-million-leaky-building-class-action-against-j
 
SirRumpole said:
Is 'our' Smurf a tour guide on this trip ?
:)
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Nah, no tour guides since it's a self-drive trip.

It has all been in place since last year by the way. Just waited and made sure everything was sorted before the "official" launch. That plus it would have got lost among everything else people are doing if it was announced over Christmas.

Waddamana Power Station museum is open daily however and anyone can simply turn up for a look with or without following the rest of the route. It's all in top condition inside and looks as though it's ready to go apart from a machine covers etc being removed so that visitors can see what's inside.

There's also an assortment of other equipment which has been relocated to the site, most notably from the former Shannon power station (long ago demolished) and an assortment of old appliances etc.

Waddamana "A" station operated 1916 - 1965 whilst the adjacent "B" station operated 1944 - 1994 (though largely obsolete after 1964 and retained primarily as backup plant). Both stations along with the associated Shannon Power Station (1934 - 1964) were superseded by the far more efficient and larger Poatina Power Station (1964 - present) which uses the same water to produce more energy.

Waddamana "A" station has particular historical significance to the power industry because:

1. It was the first power station operated by any state government electricity utility in Australia, being directly associated with the establishment of "the Hydro" as such.

2. It was the first power station in Australia located remote from any significant use of electricity and supplying an actual transmission grid. That system was itself among the largest in the world when built.

3. Right from the start was associated with efforts to develop energy-intensive heavy industry, Tasmania being the first Australian state to do so.

So Waddamana was the birthplace of the Hydro as an organisation, the use of an electricity grid in Australia, and of energy-intensive heavy industry in Australia.

A few bits of historical trivia:

The plant itself was still in top condition when shut down. It became obsolete but certainly hadn't worn out.

The Hydro was rather worried about security during WW1 and later WW2, going as far as forming it's own "Army" of sorts to patrol the transmission line, power station, pipelines etc.

The Australian Government at the time was negative toward the project, seeing no point in setting up an electricity grid in view of the limited potential uses of electricity. The Tasmanian Government was warned in no uncertain terms that no bailout would be forthcoming should the venture fail.

Ice was an ongoing problem at Penstock Lagoon during the colder months. If the water level dropped then apparently sheets of ice would break loose, fall down vertically below the water and position themselves to block the water intake thus shutting down the power station. Men were employed with sledge hammers to manually smash the ice into pieces, 24 hours per day in freezing conditions, to prevent this.:)
 
noco said:
Yeah, like the Labor Party sold of the Commonwealth Bank.
Beattie in Queensland sold off the Golden casket that paid for the hospitals.
One is bad as the other....But in in most cases where the Liberals have sold assets. it was to pay for Labor's overspending and high debt.
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That's a rubbish, biased statement. The Libs have sold infrastructure long before the Labor's spending. Take the sale of Telstra. Sold to fund public service pensions. Baird need not have sold the poles and wires.
Both sides of politics are as bad as one another with regard to the sale of assets.
 
sptrawler said:
Talking about power stations, built on the cheap, have a look at this Smurph.

https://thewest.com.au/business/energy/bluewaters-power-station-suffers-massive-outage-ng-b88373489z

That was built in Collie, which in winter, resembles Tasmania.lol
I would hate to do overnight isolations, there in winter.lol
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Hmm....

Here in Tassie we came up with the idea that you put sheets on the framework of a building. You know, stuff like corrugated iron. That keeps the rain and wind out. Works a treat.

It's not a new idea by the way and I'm very sure we weren't the first to do it. Maybe I should set up a consulting business and sell the idea to Bluewaters in WA? :D

Being more serious, I see they've had a fault "within the generator" and it followed a sudden trip. Doesn't sound good - I'm guessing a winding fault? It'll be out for months if that's the case.

What it does highlight is that any power station can have a major failure without warning. Proper maintenance minimises the chance but it's never absolutely zero. Coal, gas, hydro, whatever - none of them are totally immune to failure.

Hence why any grid needs reserve generating capacity to maintain supply to consumers when things go wrong. Thankfully WA does seem to have that but in Vic and SA it's about to be the exact opposite with insufficient capacity to meet demand even if everything does work 100% perfectly.

Now suppose that any substantial power station in Vic or SA has a failure like what's happened in WA. With a supply shortfall even with everything working they're going to be in a world of pain if (when) a major failure does occur.
 
I just love this quaint turn of phrase

Mr Watters said Bluewaters had invited the plant’s manufacturer, US conglomerate GE, to diagnose and fix the problem.
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Now if Donald was in charge it would be "get off your backsides and come and fix this thing you morons"

:D
 
Generation right now in WA:

Coal = 49%

Gas = 45%

Wind = 5%

Minor sources (biomass etc) = 0.5%

Doesn't add to 100% due to rounding.
 
If you want a high % of intermittent sources of generation in the grid then you need some way to store that energy for use when generation availability falls below demand (Eg the wind isn't blowing much).

There's various ways to do that but in terms of scale, durability, technical characteristics (particularly system inertia) and cost pumped hydro is a very serious option and a well proven one at that. It's far more robust and larger than any battery is likely to be anytime soon.

There are presently 3 pumped storage schemes in Australia - Tumut 3 (Snowy), Shoalhaven (NSW) and Wivenhoe (Qld). Tumut 3 is also a conventional hydro station in addition to its pumped storage capability (that is, it has natural inflows additional to pumping).

There are quite a few pumped diversions in Tasmania but they are diversions from one catchment into another, water flowing up hill, and are not a pumped storage scheme as such since the water never returns to its original location. They add energy however - eg pump up 140m then drop 1000m at a different location and catchment.

PS - the penstocks (pipes) shown in the link are at Tungatinah power station (Tas) although it doesn't say so on the photo (well, they're at Tungatinah unless someone else has built something which looks absolutely identical). Tungatinah is a conventional (non-pumped) hydro station in operation since 1953. It's presently out of service for planned maintenance works but it's still going strong as such and will be for a very long time yet.
 

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