The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

As with all this, first step on the financial side is to separate cost saving from cost shifting.

To the extent it saves real, actual costs that's very different from simply avoiding payment of an unchanged cost.

Without having seen the maths behind this one, I'll observe that rather a lot of what's going on is the latter. "Saving" costs by getting someone else to pay them rather than by actually saving that cost - that's why retail electricity prices keep going up.

Also if the homeowner is selling the property, what happens to the solar/battery output obligation contract?
Like I said interesting to see how it unfolds.

 

[sptrawler]

Well we should start and get some action now, the Govt can't keep shielding the consumer for ever, the longer it goes on the bigger the bill shock.
It is good they are starting to pressure the companies into sort themselves out IMO.

Coal companies to reap up to $1 billion compensation before price cap winds up

Chris Bowen is ready to lift the cap on the coal price, but he has not yet made the final call.

www.theage.com.au

Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen is readying to lift the federal government’s cap on coal prices in July, winding up compensation worth hundreds of millions of dollars to power generators, but has not yet made a final call as the government looks for cost-of-living solutions.
Both gas and coal prices were capped last year as global prices spiked, a move that has been credited with keeping elevated electricity bills lower than they otherwise would have been without a cap. It was part of a $1.5 billion package that aimed to save consumers about $230 a year on their utility bills.
The latest Treasury figures show the federal government has already paid $165 million to NSW-based generators and the latest energy department estimates forecast payments of up to $1 billion by the end of June this year, double earlier estimates.

A Department of Climate Change, Energy and Water document states the total cost of the compensation to coal companies would be “in the order of $1.5 billion to $2 billion, with the Commonwealth paying a 50 per cent share”.
Bowen’s spokeswoman said the $12 per gigajoule gas cap had effectively been extended to 2025 through a new code of conduct.

Asked about the deadline for a separate limit of $125 per tonne on black coal from Queensland and NSW, Bowen’s office said, “No decision has been made to extend coal price caps beyond the original end date.

“Coal price caps were implemented to address the domestic impact of high global thermal coal prices resulting from the war in Ukraine.”

To extend the price cap, the federal government would require the NSW and Queensland governments to co-operate. However, NSW Treasurer Daniel Mookhey has said he intends to remove the cap in June.

 

[Knobby22]

The Federal Government has blocked the Victorian Government the offshore windmill program to be located on wetlands due to extensive environmental damage.

 

[sptrawler]

The Federal Government has blocked the Victorian Government the offshore windmill program to be located on wetlands due to extensive environmental damage.

This is becoming a problem with the renewable rollout, the farmers have an issue with transmission lines, the Feds have a problem with the location of the wind farm, the environmentalists have issues with dams, the Marinus link has been downsized to one cable.
It isn't going to be easy, that's for sure.

 

[Smurf1976]

The Federal Government has blocked the Victorian Government the offshore windmill program to be located on wetlands due to extensive environmental damage.

To be precise they've blocked the port they planned to use as a base not the actual wind farm.

It's near the existing Esso crude oil tanks and fractionation plant, the separate BlueScope steel plant, and not far from the now mostly demolished former BP oil refinery.

Location is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.2824817,145.219357,9604m/data=!3m1!1e3?authuser=0&entry=ttu

AGL ran into the same problem when they proposed using the BP site to import LNG, rejected on environmental grounds.

For the wind farm, the idea of doing it from Tasmania has been considered as one alternative. That is, build the wind farm as planned offshore in Victoria but put all the land based stuff at Bell Bay, Tas. So build and assemble everything there, base the maintenance there, etc but the actual wind farm will be off the coast of Victoria. Needless to say that's not a particularly cheap way to do it....

 

[Knobby22]

To be precise they've blocked the port they planned to use as a base not the actual wind farm.

It's near the existing Esso crude oil tanks and fractionation plant, the separate BlueScope steel plant, and not far from the now mostly demolished former BP oil refinery.

Location is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.2824817,145.219357,9604m/data=!3m1!1e3?authuser=0&entry=ttu

AGL ran into the same problem when they proposed using the BP site to import LNG, rejected on environmental grounds.

For the wind farm, the idea of doing it from Tasmania has been considered as one alternative. That is, build the wind farm as planned offshore in Victoria but put all the land based stuff at Bell Bay, Tas. So build and assemble everything there, base the maintenance there, etc but the actual wind farm will be off the coast of Victoria. Needless to say that's not a particularly cheap way to do it....

Thanks Smurf, especially the location link.

 

[Smurf1976]

Thanks Smurf, especially the location link.

I'll emphasise that's the location they planned for the land based port, assembly, workshops etc.

The actual wind farm site is off the coast in this broad location https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.5835222,147.2726416,9z?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

[qldfrog]

Our current grid situation:
Post in thread 'The state of the economy at the street level' https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...conomy-at-the-street-level.28455/post-1259622

 

[sptrawler]

Interesting article we have touched on it before, thought provoking.

Gigantic solar farms of the future might impact how much solar power can be generated on the other side of the world

Solar farms that span whole countries could change the climate – new study.

theconversation.com

 

[basilio]

Twiggy has made another big Renewable Energy announcement. He is promising to supply 14GW .
This isn't an FMG committment. It is Twiggy's private company. Be interesting see how it goes.

Forrest turns sod on NSW biggest wind farm, firms 14GW plans with major turbine deal​

Sophie Vorrath 11 January 2024 0

Image: Squadron Energy


Squadron Energy has broken ground on Uungula Wind Farm in New South Wales, the company’s billionaire owner Andrew Forrest using the occasion to announce a multi-billion dollar turbine supply deal with GE Vernova and to reaffirm plans to develop a 14GW pipeline of projects around Australia.

The 450MW Uungala wind farm near Wellington in the state’s central west will be the largest in the state, once complete – and until the massive, recently approved 1.5GW Yanco Delta project is built.

The Squadron project, which had been scheduled to start construction last year, gets underway after emerging as one of the winners in the $4.2 billion NSW government tender, the results of which were announced last month. It also comes with an existing off-take agreement with Snowy Hydro an approved connection to the grid.

Squadron says this makes it the only company to reach financial close on a wind farm in Australia and the only company to open a major grid connected wind farm in 2023 – with another 6GW in the pipeline, according to Forrest.

Indeed, Forrest has promised to deliver a 14GW development pipeline of renewable and storage projects – or one third of the renewable energy required for Australia to meet its 2030 82% renewables target, as the iron-ore magnate likes to describe it.

Forrest turns sod on NSW biggest wind farm, firms 14GW plans with major turbine deal

Squadron Energy breaks ground on Uungula Wind Farm and announces multi-billion dollar turbine supply deal to underpin giga-scale project pipeline.

reneweconomy.com.au

.

 

[basilio]

Interesting article we have touched on it before, thought provoking.

Gigantic solar farms of the future might impact how much solar power can be generated on the other side of the world

Solar farms that span whole countries could change the climate – new study.

theconversation.com

They are one hell of a big solar farms. Very hypothetical.
The question of changing climate is possible. If the farms incorporated agriculture under and around the panels that could easily change the picture

Australia’s biggest agri-solar and battery storage project wins planning approval

Massive agri-solar and battery storage project gets planning approval from NSW government, just days after farming lobby called for moratorium.

reneweconomy.com.au

Solar and agriculture could be perfect match | Clean Energy Council

'Agrisolar' or 'agrivoltaics' combines solar technology and agricultural production for more efficient land use. See below for a rundown of the industry by our expert Lucinda Tonge

www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au

 

[basilio]

As with all this, first step on the financial side is to separate cost saving from cost shifting.

To the extent it saves real, actual costs that's very different from simply avoiding payment of an unchanged cost.

Without having seen the maths behind this one, I'll observe that rather a lot of what's going on is the latter. "Saving" costs by getting someone else to pay them rather than by actually saving that cost - that's why retail electricity prices keep going up.

As far as I can see the "trick" to this deal is the retail company controlling a very large solar and battery bank. They get to use solar power cheaply and can store and access any surplus. They are controlling the operations. In that context loading the houses with as much solar and as much battery as possible makes good sense. I believe the quality of the panels and installation will be high. Absolutely no point in shoddy products when you have to maintain it for 10 years.

With this supply of cheap power and flexible storage they are able to offer a cheap energy rate to their solar customers. The promoters suggest a $750 a year financial dividend to the home owners through cheaper energy.

The house owner doesn't get the full value of the installation ie free solar and off peak battery. But then they have incurred no cost. They can however decide to buy the unit at a depreciated figure in the future if they wish to go personal solar.

If I was the the promoter I would be looking at all new housing estates and pitching the proposal to the builders.

 

[sptrawler]

Well as usual, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Surprise, surprise, not.
It would be funny, if it wasn't so serious.

‘Get to yes or no as quickly as possible’: Bowen wants fast decisions on renewables

The climate change minister wants all levels of government to speed up planning decisions, but would not comment on Tanya Plibersek’s veto of Victoria’s planned wind-farm port.

www.smh.com.au

Australia has just 71 months left to start transforming its energy system, Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen warns, and he has called on all levels of Australian government to speed up planning decisions for new energy projects and transmissions lines to meet renewable targets set for 2030.

Bowen’s comment came after Victorian Climate Action and Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio claimed the Albanese government failed to support the offshore wind industry, after federal Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek vetoed an application for a port linked to the Star of the South wind project on environmental grounds.
D’Ambrosio accused the federal government of assuming that the development of offshore wind farms to feed the nation’s grid with renewable energy would “magically sort itself out”.

“If we had a national plan with national targets and national funding and national coordination, then we wouldn’t have had this problem with the port,” D’Ambrosio said on Wednesday.

Crickets? as some would say.

 

[SirRumpole]

“If we had a national plan with national targets and national funding and national coordination, then we wouldn’t have had this problem with the port,” D’Ambrosio said on Wednesday.

How true.

It may not be perfect but it's better than all the random thoughts floating around.

 

[sptrawler]

How true.

It may not be perfect but it's better than all the random thoughts floating around.

The big problem now is tic tock.

 

[Smurf1976]

Australia has just 71 months left to start transforming its energy system, Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen warns

There's far less time than that if we want to keep the lights on and avoid price shocks to consumers.

Far less time.

 

[sptrawler]

There's far less time than that if we want to keep the lights on and avoid price shocks to consumers.

Far less time.

Yes we are getting really close to the you talked the talk, when are you going to walk the walk.
From what I have read, they seem to be putting in less than was being put in prior to the election.
For all the naysaying, Snowy2.0 was underway, Kurri Kurri was underway, Marinus twin link was Federally supported.
Since the election nothing major has been started and the Marinus link has been halved,interesting times.
Yet a target has been set, that's looking increasingly shaky, unless someone steps in and pulls the Govt out of the $hit.
Reality in the technical field is something that comes home to bite very, very, hard.
It isn't something that can be swept under the carpet, it becomes a disaster, if the grid collapses the voice won't need a referendum it will be heard loud and clear.
I think the penny is dropping with Chris, my guess is in his recent travels, he has heard some interesting takes on Australia's Alice in Wonderland approach to the transition.

 

[sptrawler]

There's far less time than that if we want to keep the lights on and avoid price shocks to consumers.

Far less time.

After 12 years I'm upgrading my 1.6kW system, on the unit in Mandurah, going up to 6.6kW due to panel efficiency increases, interesting I have to install an export limiting device.
They are obviously trying to get ahead of the curve, with regard multiple units, some with older inverters could be in an interesting position, overloading the strata consumer mains supply capacity.
There are a lot of issues you don't even think about until it arrives.

 

[Smurf1976]

They are obviously trying to get ahead of the curve, with regard multiple units, some with older inverters could be in an interesting position

What you don't want is the situation that actually exists in SA.

It was left too late and the workaround is simply to crank up the distribution voltage until sufficient solar generation trips off.

Needless to say, intentionally sending overvoltage into every home and small business isn't ideal and brings about "the law of unintended consequences" one of which is reports that as well as shutting down solar, it also shuts down at least some EV chargers. That's not a good outcome obviously, cutting load is the opposite of what's required.

Remotely curtailing inverters via commanding them to do so is theoretically a far nicer way but not without problems as well with the implementation. It's all well and good until someone who's lost grid supply completely, and has an inverter with battery operating in backup mode as an islanded power system, has it remotely shut down. Since the loss of power means the house also loses internet, there's no way to send it a command to restart it.

Consumers who've got $10k+ systems providing backup power, and who've had that system disabled during an actual power failure, tend to get extremely angry....

 

[sptrawler]

What you don't want is the situation that actually exists in SA.

It was left too late and the workaround is simply to crank up the distribution voltage until sufficient solar generation trips off.

Needless to say, intentionally sending overvoltage into every home and small business isn't ideal and brings about "the law of unintended consequences" one of which is reports that as well as shutting down solar, it also shuts down at least some EV chargers. That's not a good outcome obviously, cutting load is the opposite of what's required.

Remotely curtailing inverters via commanding them to do so is theoretically a far nicer way but not without problems as well with the implementation. It's all well and good until someone who's lost grid supply completely, and has an inverter with battery operating in backup mode as an islanded power system, has it remotely shut down. Since the loss of power means the house also loses internet, there's no way to send it a command to restart it.

Consumers who've got $10k+ systems providing backup power, and who've had that system disabled during an actual power failure, tend to get extremely angry....

Yes that's one of the reasons I'm upgrading, the strata will no doubt have an issue with excess generation, also excess draw if a few people get EV's.
I'm the only one in the complex with solar and with an EV, so get in early before it needs to be limited.

With regard the internet at the unit, I run 4g sim operated wifi modem, the fibre is to the building and was done in the first rollout, I haven't connected it.
Between the phone and the modem, I have enough internet for my needs, at $200/PA.

I'm giving the Strata Manager a run down on the issue and making her aware that she needs to understand the issue, as more people in the strata's she manages will be applying to put solar on and she needs to be aware of the total power allocation to each strata.

The other thing I'm guessing, in unit complexes, all inverters will have to be wifi enabled and also be able to be fitted with CT current limiting feedback, so those with older style systems may well be required to have them updated.
That's when the price will go up as usual.

The other plus is, the son on the farm down South wants the old 1.6kW panels for a solar pump.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.