The future of energy generation and storage

[noco]

The Federal government can impose other taxes, like a resource rent tax. It works the same way as a royalty , it's just not called a royalty.

The miners and gas exporters are evading company tax anyway they can by transfer pricing or whatever so we have the right to recover that lost revenue by other means if necessary.

A royalty is totally to a rent resources tax which can be imposed by the Federal Government but as I explained to you before, Wayne Swan imposed a RRT which failed to meet his prediction......And I will say it again, the RRT cost more to administer than the return...Swannie was going to use it to fund the NDIS and Gonski....those two were never ever funded and is now in the lap of the current government to find the money.

If you are not up to speed as to what is going on, there are international arrangements being put in place to stop the loop holes of tax evasion...Something Joe Hockey implemented during his term as treasurer and to the best of my knowledge is still under negotiations with other G20 countries.

 

[SirRumpole]

A royalty is totally to a rent resources tax which can be imposed by the Federal Government but as I explained to you before, Wayne Swan imposed a RRT which failed to meet his prediction......And I will say it again, the RRT cost more to administer than the return...Swannie was going to use it to fund the NDIS and Gonski....those two were never ever funded and is now in the lap of the current government to find the money.

If you are not up to speed as to what is going on, there are international arrangements being put in place to stop the loop holes of tax evasion...Something Joe Hockey implemented during his term as treasurer and to the best of my knowledge is still under negotiations with other G20 countries.

Swan was an idiot and let the mining companies design their own tax. God knows why he did it that way, if he designed it properly we would have financed Gonski and more besides. He should have taken a trip to Norway to see how they run their oil and gas royalty system.

 

[noco]

Swan was an idiot and let the mining companies design their own tax. God knows why he did it that way, if he designed it properly we would have financed Gonski and more besides. He should have taken a trip to Norway to see how they run their oil and gas royalty system.

Well he didn't and now we are left with the legacy of a another Labor stuff up...AS you say, he is an idiot and had no idea of what he was doing.

How he had the honor of being named the Worlds greatest treasurer know one knows.

 

[orr]

The 'idiots' are those that were able to be convinced by a $7million dollar campaign by the minerals council that the Super profits tax was the economic death knell for the Australian nation when it was exactly the opposite.
Donald Horne saw and defined these twats years ago. Such is the power of self inflicted ignorance. As the Article pointed out by Smurf explains 'A $20billion a year shot in your own foot' .... Cretin is to kind a word.

think about a new thread...

 

[Smurf1976]

So far as gas is concerned, my basic thought is that with regard to the Queensland LNG plants specifically they have:

1. Roughly doubled the wholesale price of gas with a consequent huge jump in prices for major users (manufacturing, power generation). Every gas user in Qld / NSW / ACT / Vic / SA / Tas is paying more as a result but in % terms the hit is far greater for large users (since with households the distribution cost is a big % of the gas bill).

2. Some specific industries, eg fertilizer manufacturing, are now largely uneconomic as a result of this. No doubt some others as well.

3. Gas-fired power generation has become uneconomic for base load and to a large extent for anything other than the actual peaks. So we've seen some plant shut down altogether (mothballed), some more planned to be closed and what remains is used far less.

So we've locked ourselves out of gas as an option, leaving renewables and coal as the only real options we've got for power in most of Australia.

If we were making a fortune selling gas then I can see a possible benefit in all that. But in practice it seems that we've allowed an awful lot of local industry to be harmed in order to benefit only gas producers. That might be OK if there was some huge benefit in terms of taxation etc but it seems that's not the case.

Of all significant scale industries ever set up in Australia, the Qld LNG plants are the only one that comes to mind as likely doing more economic damage than it's worth. Just about every business and household across multiple states is paying higher energy costs, harming the economic competitiveness of numerous industries, and all for an activity that's employing relatively few on an ongoing basis, is chewing through a massive amount of power itself and with no apparent taxation windfall either.

Looking at the cost impact on others, it's a far larger cost increase than the carbon tax was for gas users indeed for a gas-fired generator it's a larger cost than the carbon tax had on a coal-fired plant. No doubt there are benefits to the local area where the LNG plants are located but I'm not at all convinced there's a national benefit in this activity overall. Gas users in the affected states are paying roughly $2 billion a year in higher gas prices plus the flow-on effects where a gas-using industry ends up being uneconomic as a result. And that's without mentioning the upset farmers and others.

My personal view is that we should have come up with a national energy plan and only allowed the export of gas if we really weren't going to need it ourselves. Instead we've sold an incredible amount to the point that we've pretty much taken gas off the table as a serious option without having a plan for what we're actually going to do.

 

[noco]

Yes, I agree. I don't want to get political, but John Howard flushed the proceeds of the mining boom down the loo by giving it to people who didn't need it like wealthy retirees.

Rumpy, I am still waiting for your answer regarding how much money John Howard flushed down the drain.

I thought it was the Green/Labor coalitions ideology that the minerals in the ground belong to the people of Australia and that we are entitled to some benefit and here you are criticizing John Howard for giving some of the benefits of the mining boom to the people of Australia and yet he was still able to hand Labor the gift of $22 billion which they squandered in a matter of weeks plus a hell of a lot more to be absolutely wasted....Oh of course lest we forget the GFC .....

:topic
Yes I know....But how much longer must I wait for your answer?

 

[SirRumpole]

Rumpy, I am still waiting for your answer regarding how much money John Howard flushed down the drain.

I thought it was the Green/Labor coalitions ideology that the minerals in the ground belong to the people of Australia and that we are entitled to some benefit and here you are criticizing John Howard for giving some of the benefits of the mining boom to the people of Australia and yet he was still able to hand Labor the gift of $22 billion which they squandered in a matter of weeks plus a hell of a lot more to be absolutely wasted....Oh of course lest we forget the GFC .....

:topic
Yes I know....But how much longer must I wait for your answer?

Noco, a bit of research by yourself would find the answer. Just Google "John Howard middle class welfare". Here is one to get you going.

http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnis...rds-middleclass-welfare-state-20160229-gn6c7w

 

[noco]

Noco, a bit of research by yourself would find the answer. Just Google "John Howard middle class welfare". Here is one to get you going.

http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnis...rds-middleclass-welfare-state-20160229-gn6c7w

Rumpy you made a rash statement that Howard had "SQUANDERED" money by giving taxpayers a cut and at the time you had no idea until I forced you find out days later....That link you posted is useless as it is for subscribers only but I was one step ahead of you and had already done my homework and the figure was $30 billion over a period of time......Howard was a good man in giving back to the tax payer some of the wealth from mining of which and your socialists mates are always advocating....We own the minerals in the ground so therefore we should share some of that wealth....RIGHT OR WRONG?

Now then how does that compare with $22 billion Rudd gave away in $900 dud cheques to every man, woman and child both living and dead here and overseas....Bingo all in one week...That was the $22 billion Howard kindly left for Labor to squander.

Next on the list is the tax cuts Paul Keating gave to the rich corporate companies 49% to 33%......Now in our modern era Turnbull wants to cut the rate again from 30% to 25% immediately for small business and larger corporate organizations in 10 years time... and BS Bill Shorten is whinging about it.......What is the word we use?...HYPOCRITES.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-29/fact-check-labor-on-corporate-tax-cuts/7549754

And Bill Shorten?

Mr Shorten expressed enthusiasm for company tax cuts when a company tax cut was Labor policy.

In November 2010, as the minister for financial services and superannuation, he told the Australian Services Union national conference that Labor's plan for cutting the company tax rate would "keep all sectors of our economy competitive in their own global markets".

"We should never forget that we are just one option for international investors — we have to make sure we offer the most compelling value," he said.

At the same ACOSS conference in March 2011 that Bob Brown addressed, Mr Shorten argued against the Greens' proposal to spend the expected proceeds from the mining tax on a national dental care scheme or an increase to welfare payments rather than a company tax cut.

Mr Shorten said:

"What this proposal, as well-meaning as it might seem, what it fails to recognise is that we need to encourage employment participation, not greater welfare dependency. Friends, corporate tax reform helps Australia's private sector grow and it creates jobs right up and down the income ladder."

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.
Video: Bill Shorten on corporate tax cuts in 2011 (ABC News)

In August 2011, Mr Shorten told Parliament:

"Cutting the company income tax rate increases domestic productivity and domestic investment. More capital means higher productivity and economic growth and leads to more jobs and higher wages."

Fact Check does not make a judgment on whether Mr Shorten was right then or now. But it is clear he argued that there were a number of benefits to company tax cuts, whereas now he argues any public benefits are minimal.

 

[SirRumpole]

.We own the minerals in the ground so therefore we should share some of that wealth....RIGHT OR WRONG?

Right of course, but there are various ways to give it back.

Rule 1. Don't spend windfall profits on recurrent expenditure because one day the windfall will disappear as it has now but you still have to find the money for family tax benefits etc.

INVEST windfall profits in infrastructure, power grids, NBN, railways, schools and universities that produce a return on investment.

Costello was always calling Howard a populist wastrel, and he was right.

 

[noco]

Right of course, but there are various ways to give it back.

Rule 1. Don't spend windfall profits on recurrent expenditure because one day the windfall will disappear as it has now but you still have to find the money for family tax benefits etc.

INVEST windfall profits in infrastructure, power grids, NBN, railways, schools and universities that produce a return on investment.

Costello was always calling Howard a populist wastrel, and he was right.

\

Do tell all that to the Green/Labor socialist party because they have forgotten how......They have made so many stuff ups it is just too funny.

Don't forget Keating led us into the recession we had to have....He even talked about us becoming a "BANANA REPUBLIC" and that is where we will be if the Green/Labor coalition socialist get back into power......They will send the country broke and then introduce central control.......They already control the ABC, the banks would be next followed by mining, agriculture and manufacturing what is left after the unions destroyed it all.

Do some research and establish what John Howard did for this nation in 10 years.......You might be surprised....You are constantly opening your mouth before getting your brain into gear.

:topic

 

[Smurf1976]

Something I'll add regarding the ongoing situation in SA with a number of large industries still unable to get sufficient power, most notably the steel works at Whyalla.

Hydro Tas has 100 MW of easily transported gas turbines (set up to run on either diesel or gas) that were offered to SA immediately after the storm and blackout. Also diesel fuel tanks, fuel lines, transformers and so on to go with them also offered. Plus people to come and set them up also available. All of this is available very quickly and presently located in Tasmania.

All of this could be shipped across to Melbourne and then taken by road to SA quite easily. Everything is either trailer mounted or fits on a normal large truck so no problems there. According to a media report the RAAF have also offered to transport them by air.

Apparently SA doesn't want them and would rather just continue having industry without power until they get the lines back up to Port Augusta.

OK then.....

 

[noco]

Something I'll add regarding the ongoing situation in SA with a number of large industries still unable to get sufficient power, most notably the steel works at Whyalla.

Hydro Tas has 100 MW of easily transported gas turbines (set up to run on either diesel or gas) that were offered to SA immediately after the storm and blackout. Also diesel fuel tanks, fuel lines, transformers and so on to go with them also offered. Plus people to come and set them up also available. All of this is available very quickly and presently located in Tasmania.

All of this could be shipped across to Melbourne and then taken by road to SA quite easily. Everything is either trailer mounted or fits on a normal large truck so no problems there. According to a media report the RAAF have also offered to transport them by air.

Apparently SA doesn't want them and would rather just continue having industry without power until they get the lines back up to Port Augusta.

OK then.....

What fools they are and to think the people of South Australia have to wait until March 17 2018 for the next election to have their say.

 

[SirRumpole]

\

Do tell all that to the Green/Labor socialist party because they have forgotten how......They have made so many stuff ups it is just too funny.

Don't forget Keating led us into the recession we had to have....He even talked about us becoming a "BANANA REPUBLIC" and that is where we will be if the Green/Labor coalition socialist get back into power......They will send the country broke and then introduce central control.......They already control the ABC, the banks would be next followed by mining, agriculture and manufacturing what is left after the unions destroyed it all.

Do some research and establish what John Howard did for this nation in 10 years.......You might be surprised....You are constantly opening your mouth before getting your brain into gear.

:topic

It's simply pointless trying to discuss anything with you. I point out a few inconvenient facts and all you do is rant. So I'll look for the Ignore button and get some peace.

Bye.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yet another way of storing energy.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-flywheel-design/

 

[qldfrog]

Yet another way of storing energy.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-flywheel-design/

Flywheel and compressed air are two forms of storage which were used widely when energy was dearer;
I remember reading that the first metro lines in Paris had a geant flywheel in the driving unit to get the braking energy back and smooth the starts, in such frequent start/stop situation.
Smurf pointed recently the flywheel effect in existing generators, able to smooth short disruptions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake for interesting summary

 

[noco]

It's simply pointless trying to discuss anything with you. I point out a few inconvenient facts and all you do is rant. So I'll look for the Ignore button and get some peace.

Bye.

Sorry Rumpy but you are a poor loser.
:jump:

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf pointed recently the flywheel effect in existing generators, able to smooth short disruptions:

Yep, the sheer physical mass of metal rotating at speed in a conventional (coal, oil, gas, hydro, nuclear, biomass) power station is a hard thing to stop and even slowing it releases a lot of energy in order to do so.

Take a grid that's sitting nicely at 50Hz (frequency - that's speed in layman's terms) where it should be (some countries use 60Hz but the same principle applies). Now take a generation source offline suddenly (something goes wrong and it stops working). Frequency will fall gradually as every other generating unit releases that stored energy into the system. Then as something else ramps up to bring it back into balance, frequency will rise slowly as energy is stored by increasing the speed of all generators in the system.

A key point there is that in an AC grid (what we have today) the frequency will be exactly the same wherever you measure it. At any power station, any sub-station or at home it will be exactly the same. If one thing slows, so does everything else since they're all locked to system frequency and that makes the grid a hard thing to suddenly stop.

It's like a fully loaded freight train. Turn the engine off or add some sudden external load (by whatever means) and it slows down only very gradually since there's a lot of energy in that moving mass of the locomotives, rolling stock and whatever it's carrying. Even a car exhibits that to some extent, it doesn't stop the moment you take your foot off the pedal and takes quite some time to simply roll to a stop on a flat road as all that stored energy is released (ultimately being lost to friction in various forms).

One way to add inertia to the grid would be to just have machines spinning without an external (steam, water etc) energy input. Power from the grid brings it up to speed then it just sits there doing basically nothing but ready to release its stored energy if something else stops generating. So that's a bit like taking an empty truck and then putting 20 tonnes of whatever on it - it now takes a lot longer to change speed than when it was empty. In the context of the grid, doing that adds stability even though it's not an energy source as such.

 

[SirRumpole]

If you (not Smurph ) wondered how a wind turbine could produce a constant frequency when the wind speed and therefore the turbine speed was constantly changing, the answer is a Double Fed Induction Generator explained here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubly-fed_electric_machine#Double_fed_induction_generator

I believe you can also do it by converting the AC output of the wind turbine to DC and passing it through an inverter which puts out a constant frequency.

 

[SirRumpole]

Geothermal energy promising in the Latrobe Valley.

https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pgDPGNLZJV?play=true

 

[Tisme]

Flywheel and compressed air are two forms of storage which were used widely when energy was dearer;
I remember reading that the first metro lines in Paris had a geant flywheel in the driving unit to get the braking energy back and smooth the starts, in such frequent start/stop situation.
Smurf pointed recently the flywheel effect in existing generators, able to smooth short disruptions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake for interesting summary

Not unfamiliar with flywheels for both ride through and kinetic storage. I'm old enough to recall the big slow moving wheels with the leather belts driving pinion wheels.

Knowing that the energy is stored in the rims, and that storage varies by the square of the rpm hasn't stopped me from destroying many over machined flywheels in my modified cars LOL.

FW storage farms seem to be getting some attention too.

Of course the flywheel is useless if it can't transfer that stored energy into the power grid because the poles and conductors didn't vote Liberal Party and insist on laying down with their wires in a twist during cyclones. Apparently Greg Hunt et al childish political naivety is what greases the wheels, not engineering preventative maintenance.