The future of energy generation and storage

[basilio]

No xhit Sherlock... The AMEO plan to massively upgrade power transmission lines is (far) easier said than done. But one way or another it has to be done..

The blueprint for our energy future has a term that needs explaining — urgent

Why struggling to build a simple high-voltage power line is symptomatic of the difficulties in fixing a broken energy system.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SirRumpole]

No xhit Sherlock... The AMEO plan to massively upgrade power transmission lines is (far) easier said than done. But one way or another it has to be done..

The blueprint for our energy future has a term that needs explaining — urgent

Why struggling to build a simple high-voltage power line is symptomatic of the difficulties in fixing a broken energy system.

www.abc.net.au

That just shows the basic problem, who is going to pay ?

Imo it would be cheaper in the long run for governments to build the transmissions lines and cut out the middlemen.

 

[SirRumpole]

Is geo thermal power dangerous ?

Some of it may be.

 

[SirRumpole]

The ins and outs of pumped hydro and compressed air storage.

 

[basilio]

Elegant , clean, cost effective. A CO2 Battery bank.

The world’s first CO2 battery for long-duration energy storage is being commercialized [update]​

Michelle Lewis

- Jun. 28th 2022 8:31 am PT

Italian startup Energy Dome has now begun to commercialize the world’s first CO2 Battery, which was launched earlier this month in Sardinia, Italy. The battery uses carbon dioxide to store renewable energy on the grid, and Energy Dome says the technology can be quickly deployed anywhere in the world.

June 28 update: Energy Dome today announced that it has secured $11 million in bridge funding, which will enable it to buy equipment for a 20-megawatt/200-megawatt-hour/10-hour duration facility for Italian utility A2A, with which it has a memorandum of understanding.

The Evolution Fund of asset management company CDP Venture Capital Sgr, together with existing investor Barclays, led the convertible funding. Swiss family office Novum Capital Partners, an existing shareholder in Energy Dome, also joined the round.

With the closing of this latest convertible round, Energy Dome has now raised a total of nearly $25 million since the company emerged from stealth mode in February 2020. Its series B round is planned for later in 2022.

The world's first CO2 battery for long-duration energy storage is being commercialized [update]

Italian startup Energy Dome launched the world's first CO2 battery, and now it's commercializing it for a major Italian utility.

electrek.co

 

[sptrawler]

Elegant , clean, cost effective. A CO2 Battery bank.

The world’s first CO2 battery for long-duration energy storage is being commercialized [update]​

Michelle Lewis

- Jun. 28th 2022 8:31 am PT


View attachment 143701



Italian startup Energy Dome has now begun to commercialize the world’s first CO2 Battery, which was launched earlier this month in Sardinia, Italy. The battery uses carbon dioxide to store renewable energy on the grid, and Energy Dome says the technology can be quickly deployed anywhere in the world.

June 28 update: Energy Dome today announced that it has secured $11 million in bridge funding, which will enable it to buy equipment for a 20-megawatt/200-megawatt-hour/10-hour duration facility for Italian utility A2A, with which it has a memorandum of understanding.

The Evolution Fund of asset management company CDP Venture Capital Sgr, together with existing investor Barclays, led the convertible funding. Swiss family office Novum Capital Partners, an existing shareholder in Energy Dome, also joined the round.

With the closing of this latest convertible round, Energy Dome has now raised a total of nearly $25 million since the company emerged from stealth mode in February 2020. Its series B round is planned for later in 2022.

The world's first CO2 battery for long-duration energy storage is being commercialized [update]

Italian startup Energy Dome launched the world's first CO2 battery, and now it's commercializing it for a major Italian utility.

electrek.co

It sounds like there are a lot of loses in the system, compressing, condensing reheating, condensing and then supplying the fuel to drive the compressor. it will be interesting to watch

 

[SirRumpole]

It sounds like there are a lot of loses in the system, compressing, condensing reheating, condensing and then supplying the fuel to drive the compressor. it will be interesting to watch

Lots of storage systems proposing they are 'the future'.

Here's another one.

 

[SirRumpole]

Wind turbines by IKEA ?

Not quite, but wood is making a comeback.

 

[sptrawler]

Lots of storage systems proposing they are 'the future'.

Here's another one.

Wind turbines by IKEA ?

Not quite, but wood is making a comeback.

With the crap Europe has got itself into, every weird and wonderful idea will be dreamt up and they will all be followed by a request for public funding, or a blue sky IPO.???

 

[Smurf1976]

Wind turbines by IKEA ?

Not quite, but wood is making a comeback.

Replacement pipeline under construction at Lake Margaret Lower power station, Tasmania, 2010:

And yes it's watertight:

Upper station pipeline also rebuilt with woodstave the previous year.

Replaced due to old one having reached end of life:

Incidentally they tend to erode from the outside in - wind blown hail in particular wears the pipe away from the top side.

 

[Smurf1976]

If you're wondering what all this hydro stuff looks like inside:

 

[Smurf1976]

Much the same approach used anywhere:

Replacement turbine runner at Poatina power station (Tas). These machines are 57MW each and there's six in the station, all vertical axis much like those shown in the video:

Francis turbine casing. Note shaft extending upwards. At Tungatinah power station, Tas. These are small machines, originally 25MW each when first installed (1953) upgraded to 28MW each a few years ago:

Next level up, at Tungatinah:

I don't have a photo handy of the generator floor at the same station but not a lot to see, everything being enclosed behind concrete but for the record here's Poatina:

Top level at Tungatinah:

Shaft exactly like the one Richard put the dynamo against in the video. Location = Gordon PS, Tas. These are 144MW machines with three in the station:

Inlet valve at Gordon PS from above. For scale not walkway top. Flow rate = 92,000 litres / second.

So it all looks much the same anywhere. All modern hydro machines are vertical axis, turbine at the bottom, apart from tiny units on the hobby sort of scale.

The last major horizontal axis machines, with the turbine beside the alternator, in Tas were installed in 1951 and much the same in most places. Even that was only to complete a station the first units of which were commissioned in 1938 - if it hadn't been for WW2 then the last would've been in the 1940's.

Vertical axis does have various advantages but key is that it enables the turbine to be lower, right at the bottom, gaining some additional head and thus increased output from the same water volume.

A fairly small, 15MW, horizontal axis machine with the turbine cover removed. Location = Tarraleah PS, Tas. Age = installed 1938 and apart from maintenance outages has been in baseload service ever since and still is today:

 

[sptrawler]

That is what we in the industry call GRUNT.
You don't need a shaft that big unless you've got grunt, just saying. ?
It takes a lot of solar panels to get that amount of inertia.
Sometimes size matters.

 

[SirRumpole]

Interesting to see the guts of it all up close. Certainly gives a sense of perspective as to how it all fits together.

 

[Value Collector]

Where would all this spare capacity be coming from?
Obviously there will be no solar , so either lots of wind , battery, hydro, or geothermal(just kiddin).
Otherwise its still burning fossil fuels which defeat the purpose of the whole exercise.
Mick

We are talking about spare capacity on the grid, eg how much electricity can be moved into a neighbourhood at one time, limited by the capacity of the transformers and power lines etc.

What you are talking about is generation, that will come from a mixture of Wind, Hydro, Natural gas and Coal, and some other things and obviously Solar during the day.

If you are interested in how the grid is going to operate using a mix of wind and natural gas and offcourse a decreasing amount of coal, check out this investor presentation from APA.

You can see it’s predicted that all energy sources are predicted to grow, except for coal.

https://www.apa.com.au/globalassets/documents/presentations/apa-investor-morning-presentation-2022.pdf

Here is an interesting slide from the presentation, you can see wind is going to play an increasingly important role, and yes it will be backed up by batteries, pumped hydro and Natural Gas.

 

[JohnDe]

Worth a listen -

How did it come to this — the energy crisis we had to have? - ABC listen

Australia has everything it needs to produce electricity - coal, gas, sun, and wind. Yet we've wound up with energy shortages and huge price hikes. How did we get here - why is our energy system in such a mess? And what can we do to fix it?

www.abc.net.au

 

[Smurf1976]

Interesting to see the guts of it all up close. Certainly gives a sense of perspective as to how it all fits together.

Another explanation from Hammond:



And another example of the same concept at a facility in Australia:



Location = Liapootah power station, Tas. That's a "real" test being done, not just filming for the sake of it.

 

[mullokintyre]

We are talking about spare capacity on the grid, eg how much electricity can be moved into a neighbourhood at one time, limited by the capacity of the transformers and power lines etc.

What you are talking about is generation, that will come from a mixture of Wind, Hydro, Natural gas and Coal, and some other things and obviously Solar during the day.

You are dealing in semantics.
There will not be spare capacity unless there is generation.
As for the spiel from APA, it is a player in the market, looking to make money from the market.
Its a prediction, a prediction skewed to maximising APA's profits.
We have no idea as to how accurate their prediction is, what is the validity of their assumptions, or where they got their inputs from.
Given the poor records of so many institutions , I take such predictions with a grain of salt.

If you are interested in how the grid is going to operate using a mix of wind and natural gas and offcourse a decreasing amount of coal, check out this investor presentation from APA.

You can see it’s predicted that all energy sources are predicted to grow, except for coal.

https://www.apa.com.au/globalassets/documents/presentations/apa-investor-morning-presentation-2022.pdf

Here is an interesting slide from the presentation, you can see wind is going to play an increasingly important role, and yes it will be backed up by batteries, pumped hydro and Natural Gas.

View attachment 143808

As for the the statement wind is going to play an increasingly important role, if the wind does not blow for some time, no matter how many wind turbines are erected, they will not produce.
Just as no matter how many solar panels they install, they will not produce much at night.
What they need is to be able to store the excess energy when the wind does blow, or the sun does shine.
Whether that is by pumped hydro, batteries, chemical storage, or some as yet unthought of mechanism, we still need to face up to the extreme variability of two of the main renewable generation mechanisms, wind and solar.

According to the Department of Energy

The figure shows Australian electricity generation fuel mix in shares from 1994-95 to 2019-20 and calendar year 2020. Fossil fuels contributed 76% of total electricity generation in 2020, including coal (54%), gas (20%) and oil (2%).

So even after spending billions on renewables, we see that fossil fuels still provide 76% of total energy.
There will be days when they can provide nearly 100%, but we have to provide for those periods when it falls a long way short.


Mick

 

[Eager]

The future of energy generation and storage? First, a disclaimer. I hold RFX. It's the reason I saw their announcement today:

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-02539740-2A1384167?access_token=83ff96335c2d45a094df02a206a39ff4

Definitely an alternative to lithium.

RFX rose 20% today. I'm not looking garner interest here to boost their price, nor am I looking to sell. Posted for info only.

 

[Value Collector]

You are dealing in semantics.
There will not be spare capacity unless there is generation.
As for the spiel from APA, it is a player in the market, looking to make money from the market.
Its a prediction, a prediction skewed to maximising APA's profits.
We have no idea as to how accurate their prediction is, what is the validity of their assumptions, or where they got their inputs from.
Given the poor records of so many institutions , I take such predictions with a grain of salt.


As for the the statement wind is going to play an increasingly important role, if the wind does not blow for some time, no matter how many wind turbines are erected, they will not produce.
Just as no matter how many solar panels they install, they will not produce much at night.
What they need is to be able to store the excess energy when the wind does blow, or the sun does shine.
Whether that is by pumped hydro, batteries, chemical storage, or some as yet unthought of mechanism, we still need to face up to the extreme variability of two of the main renewable generation mechanisms, wind and solar.

According to the Department of Energy

So even after spending billions on renewables, we see that fossil fuels still provide 76% of total energy.
There will be days when they can provide nearly 100%, but we have to provide for those periods when it falls a long way short.


Mick

It’s not semantics, my comments were directly in relation to what sptrawler was saying about the grids capacity to transport electricity, we were not discussing generation capacity which is a different topic.

—————
In regards to the APA model, it was not created by APA it’s from an independent group.

But it’s pretty logical, and is just an extension of what is already planned and playing out, I am not sure how you can disagree with it.

It seems like common sense that both wind and solar will continue growing, Coal will continue declining and Natural gas, batteries and pumped hydro will fill the gaps between demand and renewable production.

———————

I think every one in the energy industry understands that wind and solar are intermittent, hence the whole idea in the chart is that Natural Gas usage will grow, and will pumped hydro and battery storage, and what ever residual coal capacity that exists will continue being used.