The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

that is another benefit of gas, eg shorter cycle times.

It’s only me and my wife at home, so one full tank a day is enough for us.

Three generations in my place, ranging from 5 to 65.

 

[Smurf1976]

I was thinking about this and wondered if it would be practical to use a heatpump for raising the temperature to 50-55C and then boost it the extra 15-20C with gas either in a tank or through an instantaneous gas heater ?

The basic problem is that a standard hydronic setup has water coming out of the boiler at ~80 degrees and returning to it at ~70 degrees.

Heat pumps achieve their high efficiency by discharging heat into a relatively cold water source. Eg mine outputs hot water at 65 degrees yes, but it does so with refrigerant flow in the opposite direction to water flow, such that the ~17 degree cold water from the mains is the determining factor in efficiency. The means of doing it varies but most use the same basic concept.

Long story short - not totally impossible to run a heat pump with high temperature water going into it but you'll kill the efficiency by doing that so not really workable.

Workaround is to oversize all the hydronic radiators and run the whole system at a lower temperature but that's really only an option for new installations.

 

[sptrawler]

I was thinking about this and wondered if it would be practical to use a heatpump for raising the temperature to 50-55C and then boost it the extra 15-20C with gas either in a tank or through an instantaneous gas heater ?

It shouldnt be a problem, just use renewables, it is easy.
You should be the first to know that.
Its all just lack of wanting to on your part.

 

[sptrawler]

Hydrogen is really starting to get a head of steam, this could really explode if the momentum holds up. No pun intended.
https://www.theage.com.au/environme...australian-manufacturing-20200904-p55sdu.html
From the article:
NSW Environment Minister Matt Kean has declared hydrogen the "breakthrough that changes the world", comparing its impact on climate change to what a vaccine will do to COVID-19.

His speech to a sustainability summit, hosted by The Sydney Morning Herald, follows reports that NSW would pursue large scale hydrogen production as part of its response to the economic crisiscaused by the pandemic, and that the federal government would call for expressions of interest in the creation of a "regional hydrogen export hub".

The world's first test green steel plant was opened in Sweden last week by Prime Minister Stefan Lofven, who said in a speech on Monday that "steel is jobs".

"Steel has built Sweden, and steel has built our welfare system. But steel – or rather the manufacture of steel – also threatens our way of life," he said,

In the green steel process being tested and refined in Sweden, by a government-private enterprise consortium called Hybrit, hydrogen is not only used to heat the blast furnaces, but replaces metallurgical steel inside them, providing the carbon that reduces and binds with the iron ore to create steel with no carbon emissions.

 

[sptrawler]

The States are starting to get on board with renewables, Queensland to inject $500m into renewable projects, to reach 50% by 2030.
https://www.energymatters.com.au/re...d-welcomes-500-million-renewable-energy-fund/
From the article:
The Queensland Government has announced a $500 million Renewable Energy Fund to allow the state’s energy corporations to put forward investment for new developments and publicly-owned renewables that will go towards boosting the economy after COVID-19.

The Clean Energy Council released the news, stating that the industry will embrace the investment with open arms.
“We welcome the very clear recognition by the Queensland Government that the renewable energy sector can play a big role in jumpstarting economic activity and jobs across the state following the impacts of COVID-19 while accelerating Queensland’s transition to becoming a clean energy powerhouse,” said Clean Energy Council Chief Executive Kane Thornton.

As it stands, renewables make up approximately 20 per cent of Queensland’s energy balance, with targets now focused on reaching 50 per cent by 2030.
Thornton also added that there is a fair way to go to reach the 2030 target, but investment will help spark much-needed economic activity. ”
Thornton noted that funding would go alongside the government’s recent announcement of $145 million to help support the development of renewable energy zones across the state. This will deliver extra electricity connections and infrastructure in locations that provide strategic benefits.
Energy Minister Anthony Lynham also noted that the Fund would come alongside 41 major renewable energy projects, of which have commenced development and operations, or at the very least, financial commitment. This pipeline is set to a total of 6500 jobs.

Meanwhile, Queensland Conservation Council campaigns manager Dave Copeman said the investment will further progress the state in meeting several clean energy benchmarks.

 

[Smurf1976]

Hydrogen is really starting to get a head of steam, this could really explode if the momentum holds up. No pun intended.

"Hydrogen" and "explode" are terms I prefer to not associate with each other......

Momentum won't be too worried about it though. For those not aware Momentum Energy is the retail brand name used by Hydro Tasmania in Qld, NSW, Vic and SA. A retailer shouldn't be able to explode.

 

[Smurf1976]

As it stands, renewables make up approximately 20 per cent of Queensland’s energy balance, with targets now focused on reaching 50 per cent by 2030.

I ponder how they've calculated that?

Past 12 months for Queensland (figures as a % of Qld consumption):

Coal = 80.9%
Gas = 11.6%
Oil = Trivial (about 0.005%)

Solar = 12.3% (7.3% small scale, 5% large scale)
Wind = 1.8%
Hydro = 0.9%
Biomass = 0.3%

Net export to NSW = 7.7% of Qld generation (hence the supply sources add up to more than 100% of Qld consumption).

That's just for electricity. For other energy it's almost all fossil fuel based. Not totally, eg ethanol, solar hot water and firewood, but that's relatively minor.

It can certainly go higher at times, midday today solar was 31.3%, wind 0.9%, biomass 0.8%, hydro 0.1% so all up 33.1% renewable, 66.4% coal, 4.3% gas and 0.01% oil with 3.9% of generation going to NSW.

So I'm not sure how they came up with 20% from renewables?

 

[basilio]

The basic problem is that a standard hydronic setup has water coming out of the boiler at ~80 degrees and returning to it at ~70 degrees.

Heat pumps achieve their high efficiency by discharging heat into a relatively cold water source. Eg mine outputs hot water at 65 degrees yes, but it does so with refrigerant flow in the opposite direction to water flow, such that the ~17 degree cold water from the mains is the determining factor in efficiency. The means of doing it varies but most use the same basic concept.

Long story short - not totally impossible to run a heat pump with high temperature water going into it but you'll kill the efficiency by doing that so not really workable.

Workaround is to oversize all the hydronic radiators and run the whole system at a lower temperature but that's really only an option for new installations.

That wasn't quite the way I was thinking Smurf.
I accept that a heat pump works efficiently to around 55C heating. However the hydronic system needs 80C output.

I wondering at the practicalities of routing the hot water coming out of the hydronics through an instantaneous gas heater to provide the extra heat input. Because the gas system is not heating cold water it should be a relatively modest ask.

Replacing all the current radiators with new units seems more expensive and impractical.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

 

[qldfrog]

hydrogen is not only used to heat the blast furnaces, but replaces metallurgical steel inside them, providing the carbon that reduces and binds with the iron ore to create steel with no carbon emissions.

WTF, hydrogen can not do that??carbon need to be present so that you can combine it with iron to make steel?
do they use coal or graphite to add C? I am puzzled ok for using H2 to heat up but after...

 

[Smurf1976]

That wasn't quite the way I was thinking Smurf.
I accept that a heat pump works efficiently to around 55C heating. However the hydronic system needs 80C output.

I wondering at the practicalities of routing the hot water coming out of the hydronics through an instantaneous gas heater to provide the extra heat input. Because the gas system is not heating cold water it should be a relatively modest ask.

The point being missed is that's what you've presumably got now.

Apart from at startup, the gas system won't be heating cold water. It outputs at ~80C and the water comes back to it still fairly hot to be reheated to 80C. I've never measured one, I won't claim to be an expert there since I'm not, but it's definitely pretty hot and according to various UK sites we're talking about 65C or so.

That leaves nothing for a standard heat pump in series with gas to actually do other than at startup.

That's assuming you've got hydronic radiators mounted on the wall which have a fairly high return water temperature. If you've got in-slab heating or a forced air heat exchanger well then yes the return temperature will be lower. That's not most hydronic systems though.

That said, high temperature heat pumps do exist which operate at about 75C. Not as efficient but it can be done yes. Not cheap to buy though (so may get a greater financial and environmental gain by doing something else unrelated unless you've already done everything).

 

[basilio]

The point being missed is that's what you've presumably got now.

Apart from at startup, the gas system won't be heating cold water. It outputs at ~80C and the water comes back to it still fairly hot to be reheated to 80C. I've never measured one, I won't claim to be an expert there since I'm not, but it's definitely pretty hot and according to various UK sites we're talking about 65C or so.

That leaves nothing for a standard heat pump in series with gas to actually do other than at startup.

That's assuming you've got hydronic radiators mounted on the wall which have a fairly high return water temperature. If you've got in-slab heating or a forced air heat exchanger well then yes the return temperature will be lower. That's not most hydronic systems though.

That said, high temperature heat pumps do exist which operate at about 75C. Not as efficient but it can be done yes. Not cheap to buy though (so may get a greater financial and environmental gain by doing something else unrelated unless you've already done everything).

Oops! Yes of course. I believe that is right with the system I have.

It does chew up a lot of juice which is tacitly accepted when one buys a gas heated hydronic heating system. Still wondering if heating up a tank of water with a heat pump and then using a gas booster would be viable. By definition using another energy source to raise the water temperature from cold ambient to 55C would result in less extra gas usage.
But point taken.

 

[moXJO]

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/09/...y-running-them-on-zero-emissions-lego-blocks/

Mga blocks. 30ish year lifespan. Can be recycled.

We are aiming for a cost of storage of A$50 per kilowatt hour, including all surrounding infrastructure. Currently, lithium-ion batteries cost around A$200 per kilowatt hour, with added costs if energy is to be exported to the electricity grid.

So what are the downfalls? Well, MGA does have a much slower response time than batteries. Batteries respond in milliseconds and are excellent at filling short spikes or dips in supply (such as from wind turbines). Meanwhile MGA storage has a response time above 15 minutes, but does have much longer storage capacity.

 

[Value Collector]

WTF, hydrogen can not do that??carbon need to be present so that you can combine it with iron to make steel?
do they use coal or graphite to add C? I am puzzled ok for using H2 to heat up but after...

I don’t understand it, but here is the diagram showing their system compared to the traditional system, It produces “sponge Iron” by forcing out the oxygen, I am guessing that has something to do with not requiring carbon, it then adds that to scrap metal.

 

[Value Collector]

I don’t understand it, but here is the diagram showing their system compared to the traditional system, It produces “sponge Iron” by forcing out the oxygen, I am guessing that has something to do with not requiring carbon, it then adds that to scrap metal.

Ok, I figured it out.

Traditionally a carbon source is used when producing Pig Iron from Iron Ore, however the Swedish system is using direct reduced ore, skipping the need for a carbon source by instead using a reducing gas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_reduced_iron

 

[Dona Ferentes]

can I throw this one out to the resident experts?

Key concepts are:
1. October election
2. 100% renewables
3. Balance of power in Unicameral legislature held by the sole Greens member

The ACT will have its own big battery power back-up in two to three years as part of the latest renewable energy deals struck with suppliers.

The winners of the ACT’s fifth Renewables Reverse Auction will build the large-scale battery storage systems in the Territory to support the grid and provide power to help avoid blackouts during periods of high demand and when large fossil fuel generators fail in heatwave conditions.

Chief Minister Andrew Barr has flagged further announcements before the end of the election campaign on more battery opportunities.

The ACT Government says the latest round of the renewable electricity ‘reverse auction’ will help Canberra stay 100 per cent renewable into the next decade and deliver the best pricing outcome for residents in the program’s history.

Neoen, for Stage 1 of the Goyder South Wind Farm in South Australia and GPG, for Stage 2 of the Berrybank Wind Farm in Victoria, will provide the ACT with 200 megawatts (MW) of additional renewable electricity capacity into the grid.

The companies are also required to invest in Canberra to allow the ACT to further develop its renewable energy industry. Neoen will build a 50-megawatt hour battery, enough to power 15,000 homes for an hour, at a site to be determined, while GPG will connect its smaller 10 MWh battery to a substation in Beard. The batteries will also help stabilise the grid as more rooftop solar comes online.

The government says this auction delivered significantly lower prices than previous ACT auctions, with an average price below $50 per MWh, about a third lower than previous auctions.

Neoen has been granted a 10-year feed-in tariff at $44.97 per MWh, and GPG a 14-year feed-in tariff at $54.48 per MWh. The government says the total cost of the feed-in tariff from all auctions is expected to remain below $4.90 per household per week....

https://the-riotact.com/canberra-to-power-up-with-big-batteries-in-new-renewables-deal/403097

 

[basilio]

can I throw this one out to the resident experts?

Key concepts are:
1. October election
2. 100% renewables
3. Balance of power in Unicameral legislature held by the sole Greens member

The ACT will have its own big battery power back-up in two to three years as part of the latest renewable energy deals struck with suppliers.

The winners of the ACT’s fifth Renewables Reverse Auction will build the large-scale battery storage systems in the Territory to support the grid and provide power to help avoid blackouts during periods of high demand and when large fossil fuel generators fail in heatwave conditions.

Chief Minister Andrew Barr has flagged further announcements before the end of the election campaign on more battery opportunities.

The ACT Government says the latest round of the renewable electricity ‘reverse auction’ will help Canberra stay 100 per cent renewable into the next decade and deliver the best pricing outcome for residents in the program’s history.

Neoen, for Stage 1 of the Goyder South Wind Farm in South Australia and GPG, for Stage 2 of the Berrybank Wind Farm in Victoria, will provide the ACT with 200 megawatts (MW) of additional renewable electricity capacity into the grid.

The companies are also required to invest in Canberra to allow the ACT to further develop its renewable energy industry. Neoen will build a 50-megawatt hour battery, enough to power 15,000 homes for an hour, at a site to be determined, while GPG will connect its smaller 10 MWh battery to a substation in Beard. The batteries will also help stabilise the grid as more rooftop solar comes online.

The government says this auction delivered significantly lower prices than previous ACT auctions, with an average price below $50 per MWh, about a third lower than previous auctions.

Neoen has been granted a 10-year feed-in tariff at $44.97 per MWh, and GPG a 14-year feed-in tariff at $54.48 per MWh. The government says the total cost of the feed-in tariff from all auctions is expected to remain below $4.90 per household per week....

https://the-riotact.com/canberra-to-power-up-with-big-batteries-in-new-renewables-deal/403097

Great story.
Just reinforces how economical, straightforward and practical a renewable energy power system is.

Let's go..!

 

[sptrawler]

can I throw this one out to the resident experts?

Key concepts are:
1. October election
2. 100% renewables
3. Balance of power in Unicameral legislature held by the sole Greens member

The ACT will have its own big battery power back-up in two to three years as part of the latest renewable energy deals struck with suppliers.

The ACT is still part of the grid, so funding the expansion of wind farms in S.A and Vic, wont in itself reduce the chance of a blackout.
To reduce system disturbance caused blackouts, the battery the ACT installs will have to smooth the frequency disturbance and or supply the load for the duration of a longer supply disruption, both can be done but it will depend on the size of the ACT load and the size of the battery.
I don't think the ACT has any generation of its own
Smurf will have the answers, so it will be interesting to hear his comments.

 

[Smurf1976]

I don't think the ACT has any generation of its own
Smurf will have the answers, so it will be interesting to hear his comments.

In a physical sense the ACT is part of NSW electrically. Hence it often doesn't get a mention and there's no "ACT" region in the National Electricity Market whereas Qld, NSW, Vic, SA and Tas are all defined regions which almost (but not quite) follow the state borders.

Administratively though it's separate in terms of who owns what, local regulations and so on. Much like the ACT in every other sense - physically part of and surrounded by NSW but administratively separate.

Overall well two more batteries are two more batteries and I won't be complaining there, it does add to dispatchable capacity and will help meet the NSW and for that matter wider NEM peak demand.

In terms of the overall situation though, well it's a bit like saying that if I bring my own pump then, if the ship runs into trouble, I can stop my part of it sinking by pumping water out of my cabin right? Err, no, doesn't work like that...... If NSW ends up in the dark then the ACT's going down with the rest in practice. The ACT government will be able to show that they really did try to bail the ship out though and will be somewhat correct in saying the sinking wasn't their fault.

There's no major generation physically in the ACT although, purely administratively, 13% of the Snowy Hydro scheme has always been in the ACT although that's really just an administrative technicality which used to be relevant in terms of who was entitled to its output back when state authorities ran the entire industry (the Snowy split was always 13% ACT, 29% Vic, 58% NSW "on paper"). Beyond that it's rooftop solar, a few buildings with backup diesels etc, there aren't any major power stations physically in the ACT.

Ultimately the ACT government is going for renewables but that doesn't mean the ACT becomes a separate grid. It just means they're ensuring that someone somewhere generates enough renewable energy to equal the ACT's consumption much of which, physically, will still be from fossil fuels.

 

[Smurf1976]

For everyone not aware, Mt Gambier's gas supply failed on Wednesday night and restoration could take as long as until Monday.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...esidents-suffer-days-long-gas-outage/12649722

https://7news.com.au/news/sa/mount-gambier-residents-without-gas-due-to-line-interruption-c-1305680

A timely reminder that when energy supply fails, everything else becomes problematic real quick.

 

[SirRumpole]

Federal government steps in to build gas generator if private sector fails to invest.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Another reason why it was silly to sell the power grid in the first place.

We will build it if you don't: Federal Government preparing to build a gas plant in Hunter Valley

With the coal-fired Liddell Power Station in the Hunter Valley due to shut down in 2023, the Federal Government is worried there will not be enough dispatchable power, given the sector's focus on building wind and solar farms.

www.abc.net.au