The future of energy generation and storage

[Smurf1976]

I just found an interesting article from the International hydro association that mentions PNG has untapped Hydro sources of potentially 15,000 MWH, and currently only has 250 MWH of installed capacity.

Origin Energy were seriously interested in the idea some time ago and did some decent work on it. They were looking at 1200 MW for base load operation as the initial stage with transmission to Qld.

Hydro is often dismissed on the basis that Australia is dry and flat but, as someone who has a list of possible sites in every state, I'd argue that there's certainly potential to develop more of it and use it to fill the problem of wind and solar "droughts" which presently have no easy fix.

I don't advocate a "dam the lot" approach, there are some sites which definitely shouldn't be developed in my view for conservation or other reasons, but there's certainly potential to do more than has been done thus far as long as a sensible approach is taken rather than an ideological one.

 

[Value Collector]

Origin Energy were seriously interested in the idea some time ago and did some decent work on it. They were looking at 1200 MW for base load operation as the initial stage with transmission to Qld.

Hydro is often dismissed on the basis that Australia is dry and flat but, as someone who has a list of possible sites in every state, I'd argue that there's certainly potential to develop more of it and use it to fill the problem of wind and solar "droughts" which presently have no easy fix.

I don't advocate a "dam the lot" approach, there are some sites which definitely shouldn't be developed in my view for conservation or other reasons, but there's certainly potential to do more than has been done thus far as long as a sensible approach is taken rather than an ideological one.

it’s going to be interesting to see what FMG can do, they have a history of being able to “Will things into existence” and now that they have a few billions in free cash flow generation and lenders falling over them to make loans, they should be able to pull something off as long as the laws of physics and economics allow it.

 

[Smurf1976]

I'm surprised that there isn't a least the option to divert the power to water heating before it goes back into the grid. Or maybe there is but people preferred the feed in tariff ?

A distinction needs to be made there between financial and technical.

Technically it's dead easy simply to run the controlled load (off-peak) supply at the required times.

Financially that gets consumers in a lather however since they're exporting their solar power through one meter and simultaneously buying it back through another meter, usually at a higher price.

For those who take an objective view and crunch the numbers, that's not necessarily a bad deal since it does away with any need to be "clever" about it on your part trying to outsmart the sun.

In my own case that's precisely what I'm doing. Hot water is on Off Peak Controlled Load (OPCL) and, since it needs a maximum of 4.5 hours to fully heat the tank, the 10am - 3pm window is just fine. I've disabled it via settings on the water heater but if more hot water was then I could also use the 1am - 6am supply period but in practice I've no need to do so.

Depending on retailer, you'll be paying 50 - 60% below the standard flat rate for power through that meter so whilst it's higher than most retailers will pay for exported solar, any loss on your part won't be much and it completely removes the need to mess about watching the sun or switching things on and off etc.

That I'm clocking up two meters simultaneously, the solar export and also the OPCL import, is not a problem technically. Just means I'm paying to use my own power - but for the sake of the ~$55 a year I'm losing (and that's assuming I managed to somehow get the timing perfectly right in using my own solar and never heated from the grid) it's just not worth stuffing about trying to be clever with that one.

For those who do want a clever workaround though, well Tasmania has Tariff 93 which just happens to conveniently apply the lowest price between 10am and 4pm (as well as 9pm - 7am). Everything goes on one meter and with a timer to run the hot water during the middle of the day you can't possibly lose - it'll take your own solar power first, and import from the grid at the cheapest price second. Can't lose.

For those in SA a similar option was introduced on 1 July 2020 via the network tariffs (what retailers pay to use the network) and your retailer should be offering this to you in the near future.

You'll need a Type 4 meter, aka Smart Meter, to go with that option in SA however and the cheapest time is 10am - 3pm with the second cheap period being 1am - 6am. That'll work just fine with solar however, same as in Tas, so you put the whole lot on the one meter, timer starts the hot water up at 10am, and by default you're using your own solar first, importing from the grid at a low price second.

 

[orr]

Origin Energy were seriously interested in the idea some time ago and did some decent work on it. They were looking at 1200 MW for base load operation as the initial stage with transmission to Qld.

Hydro is often dismissed on the basis that Australia is dry and flat but, as someone who has a list of possible sites in every state, I'd argue that there's certainly potential to develop more of it and use it to fill the problem of wind and solar "droughts" which presently have no easy fix.

I don't advocate a "dam the lot" approach, there are some sites which definitely shouldn't be developed in my view for conservation or other reasons, but there's certainly potential to do more than has been done thus far as long as a sensible approach is taken rather than an ideological one.

When you have Ross Garnaut, The QLD LNP, and The QLD Labor Premier all about to sing in tune to an Updated Bradfield Plan, that now can incorporate Pumped Hydro...

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/po...iver-or-idea-has-run-dry-20200901-p55rdd.html

Can anyone see Funding being a problem?

Any word from the Covid Economic Recovery Committee? Accurately described as the 'Gas Chamber'; or Cannavan on This? .. I'd Luv to hear.
Success has a thousand fathers... Failure/s, the rearview crew(T.Abbot, Craig Kelly, M. Roberts, Angus Taylor & Martin Fergusson) is an/are orphan/s...

 

[basilio]

Interesting perspective on where we should be going with regard to using gas a fuel.
The analysis of how much money the Morrison Government is being asked to pony up to support the current Gas industry is scary. Well worth read.

Phasing out gas would benefit Australian manufacturers and households
Richard Denniss
The Australian government should allow the electricity industry to wean itself off gas

Rather than drill new fracking wells into prime farmland, the quickest, cleanest and most economically efficient way to boost the supply of gas in Australia is to stop wasting it.

According to the Australian Industry (AI) Group’s budget submission, “Ramping up support for manufacturers to transition from gas to electricity – from gas boilers to heat pumps – would both cut costs and allow them to lower emissions with onsite or offsite renewables.” I couldn’t agree more. And there is literally no better time for the federal government to support private investment than in the middle of a recession in which many factories, and many suppliers, have spare capacity.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...nefit-australian-manufacturers-and-households

 

[sptrawler]

Interesting perspective on where we should be going with regard to using gas a fuel.
The analysis of how much money the Morrison Government is being asked to pony up to support the current Gas industry is scary. Well worth read.

Phasing out gas would benefit Australian manufacturers and households
Richard Denniss
The Australian government should allow the electricity industry to wean itself off gas

Rather than drill new fracking wells into prime farmland, the quickest, cleanest and most economically efficient way to boost the supply of gas in Australia is to stop wasting it.

According to the Australian Industry (AI) Group’s budget submission, “Ramping up support for manufacturers to transition from gas to electricity – from gas boilers to heat pumps – would both cut costs and allow them to lower emissions with onsite or offsite renewables.” I couldn’t agree more. And there is literally no better time for the federal government to support private investment than in the middle of a recession in which many factories, and many suppliers, have spare capacity.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...nefit-australian-manufacturers-and-households

It hasnt taken long to move on from coal.

 

[Smurf1976]

Interesting perspective on where we should be going with regard to using gas a fuel.

From a technical or environmental perspective I don't disagree.

In practice though there's an awful lot of political baggage that would need to be cast aside for it to happen. An awful lot of baggage there......

 

[moXJO]

I prefer gas hot water. And cooking with gas.

 

[Value Collector]

I prefer gas hot water. And cooking with gas.

Does gas have a daily connection charge?

If so, once you get solar you are probably better off ditching the gas and getting electric set to a timer to heat during the day to soak up your excess production.

so not only are you saving money by utilising your own solar production, but you will be saving on connection/service fees.

 

[Value Collector]

It hasnt taken long to move on from coal.

We aren’t there yet.

 

[Smurf1976]

I prefer gas hot water.

I understand what you're saying but I'd argue that a quality heat pump properly installed will match or beat gas hot water on any realistic measure.

Trouble is, well the plumber just about fell over when I said that's what I want and will happily pay for. He had to have a look before giving me a price since, it seems, basically nobody actually wants anything done by the book and the "standard" quote suits the rest who want cheap and then complain that it unsurprisingly doesn't work perfectly.

I get what you're saying, just pointing out that solar and heat pumps can be done properly, the problem being that all too often cheap and nasty is done in practice then it either performs badly or fails outright.

 

[sptrawler]

Does gas have a daily connection charge?

If so, once you get solar you are probably better off ditching the gas and getting electric set to a timer to heat during the day to soak up your excess production.

so not only are you saving money by utilising your own solar production, but you will be saving on connection/service fees.

We have done that, the wife hates cooking with inductive and is always lamenting the loss of the gas cooktop.
I tell her that is the cost of being green.

 

[basilio]

I understand what you're saying but I'd argue that a quality heat pump properly installed will match or beat gas hot water on any realistic measure.

Trouble is, well the plumber just about fell over when I said that's what I want and will happily pay for. He had to have a look before giving me a price since, it seems, basically nobody actually wants anything done by the book and the "standard" quote suits the rest who want cheap and then complain that it unsurprisingly doesn't work perfectly.

I get what you're saying, just pointing out that solar and heat pumps can be done properly, the problem being that all too often cheap and nasty is done in practice then it either performs badly or fails outright.

All too true.
I have a lovely warm hydronic heating system. It runs from a gas fired boiler.
For lots of reasons, financially and environmentally, I'd like to switch to a using a heat pump instead of the boiler.
Unfortunately it isn't as easy as that. Frank discussions with disinterested hydronic experts says that heat pumps arn't efficient at producing the very hot water the system needs, that my current radiators won't work efficiently on lower temperature water and that these factors aren't going to change.
Rather sad.

 

[SirRumpole]

Origin Energy were seriously interested in the idea some time ago and did some decent work on it. They were looking at 1200 MW for base load operation as the initial stage with transmission to Qld.

Hydro is often dismissed on the basis that Australia is dry and flat but, as someone who has a list of possible sites in every state, I'd argue that there's certainly potential to develop more of it and use it to fill the problem of wind and solar "droughts" which presently have no easy fix.

I don't advocate a "dam the lot" approach, there are some sites which definitely shouldn't be developed in my view for conservation or other reasons, but there's certainly potential to do more than has been done thus far as long as a sensible approach is taken rather than an ideological one.

No need for dams, coastal stations using seawater can be done too.

 

[Value Collector]

All too true.
I have a lovely warm hydronic heating system. It runs from a gas fired boiler.
For lots of reasons, financially and environmentally, I'd like to switch to a using a heat pump instead of the boiler.
Unfortunately it isn't as easy as that. Frank discussions with disinterested hydronic experts says that heat pumps arn't efficient at producing the very hot water the system needs, that my current radiators won't work efficiently on lower temperature water and that these factors aren't going to change.
Rather sad.

I have heard (read) Smurf mention that I believe, the higher temp you need to raise something too the less Effective heat pumps are.

If you live in a really cold location, direct burning of gas is one of the best methods of heating, unless as I said you have your own solar and can store the heat produced in the middle of the day (hot water system).

 

[basilio]

I have heard (read) Smurf mention that I believe, the higher temp you need to raise something too the less Effective heat pumps are.

If you live in a really cold location, direct burning of gas is one of the best methods of heating, unless as I said you have your own solar and can store the heat produced in the middle of the day (hot water system).

I was thinking about this and wondered if it would be practical to use a heatpump for raising the temperature to 50-55C and then boost it the extra 15-20C with gas either in a tank or through an instantaneous gas heater ?

 

[moXJO]

Does gas have a daily connection charge?

If so, once you get solar you are probably better off ditching the gas and getting electric set to a timer to heat during the day to soak up your excess production.

so not only are you saving money by utilising your own solar production, but you will be saving on connection/service fees.

I have to many kids and now their gfs living here. I had electric before but was sick of cold showers.
I don't care about money. But will switch if made aware of a decent product.

 

[moXJO]

I understand what you're saying but I'd argue that a quality heat pump properly installed will match or beat gas hot water on any realistic measure.

Trouble is, well the plumber just about fell over when I said that's what I want and will happily pay for. He had to have a look before giving me a price since, it seems, basically nobody actually wants anything done by the book and the "standard" quote suits the rest who want cheap and then complain that it unsurprisingly doesn't work perfectly.

I get what you're saying, just pointing out that solar and heat pumps can be done properly, the problem being that all too often cheap and nasty is done in practice then it either performs badly or fails outright.

I see a lot of cheap and nasties on the roofs of various dwellings.
Always a good idea to change out old sheets for ones with a higher protection, ultra or better. I think ace products have a higher rating on their paint.

Any copper that drips on metal will rust a hole through the sheet so inspect it every few years.

If its on a tile roof keep leaves and dirt out of the back of it. If you don't have newish sarking under the tiles you can be asking for trouble.

Generally I don't like stuff like that on the roof.

 

[Value Collector]

I have to many kids and now their gfs living here. I had electric before but was sick of cold showers.
I don't care about money. But will switch if made aware of a decent product.

that is another benefit of gas, eg shorter cycle times.

It’s only me and my wife at home, so one full tank a day is enough for us.

 

[moXJO]

It’s only me and my wife at home, so one full tank a day is enough for us.

It will be a shock when its just me and the wife. Another 15 years to go anyway.