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The future of energy generation and storage

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SirRumpole said:
What about the particulates that are supposed to be carcinogenic ?
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If we only wanted half a dozen of them then I'm sure we could be pretty choosy and make sure they were all nice, modern units in good condition that ran cleanly. But for 200 of them - well in practice I'd expect that some will be nice and clean but some won't be so good most likely.

The basic workaround is put them away from people. Not ideal but there's not a lot of choice really.

They'll reduce the air quality in that area no doubt, but it won't be anything on the scale of the smoke that we've already got with the various fires burning but still not ideal. :2twocents
 
Trading solar-generated power between households to change the way consumers buy electricity​

The concept of bypassing major energy retailers to trade rooftop solar-generated electricity between households, small businesses and community groups is inching closer to reality.

This month's arrival of the Tesla battery in Australia is slated as a major shift in favour of consumers taking charge of their energy storage.

One Sydney entrepreneur has devised a system that would allow consumers to set up a virtual shop to trade their surplus energy with other households, small businesses and community groups in their grid.

Jitendra Tomar, from the Sydney-based start-up Local Volts, said it was about changing the way consumers buy electricity.

"Anybody, whether you're big or small, whether you're a farmer or residential person, whether you're a high school or tennis club, can become an energy farmer," he said.

"If I'm buying electricity, I can say 'well I just want to buy for next month' and I have a preference for rooftop solar coming from Manly, and if that's not enough for me, I will take something from New South Wales as long as it's rooftop solar, and if that's not enough, I'll go for windmills.

"And if you're people living in an apartment and you want to buy from your tennis club, because you like the price, you have a special price for tennis club members, you say 'yeah, I'll buy electricity from my tennis club'. So finally we're going to have a choice."

CitiPower and Powercor owns more than half of the poles and wires in Victoria's power network.

The company is installing 18 test sites for solar battery storage as part of a three-year trial to look at the network impact of solar batteries.

Glen Thomson, from CitiPower and Powercor, said he could see a future where traditional power generation was bypassed.

"There's no doubt that over time, the centralised model will come under greater threat, as home-based generation grows," he said.

"We see our grid as ultimately [being] the spine of allowing that to occur, as micro-grids are formed, as home generation technologies are rolled out over the next decade or so.

"We are looking at what is the best way to enable our grid to use innovative technologies and enable customer choice."
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More on link below...

 
Ijustnewit said:
As far as those generators go I can see from my deck lots of new bitumen being laid at the Creek Road power station. So lets hope they are not planning to put them there ?
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I'll go one better. We've tracked you down and you'll find a nice surprise roaring away right out the front of your house in the morning..... :p:

Seriously, the plan thus far (it's still being worked out, but it's partly ready) has been made publicly available today and Creek Road isn't part of it at least at this stage.

http://www.hydro.com.au/system/file...nergy_Supply_Plan_Update_22_February_2016.pdf

Summary of the situation as of today:

*Total system storage now at 16.8%, down 0.6% for the week.

*Storage levels by catchment (listed from largest storage capacity to smallest) are:

Great Lake = 16.9% full (and presently holding 51% of all stored energy in the system)

Gordon = 9.8% full (19% of total system energy)

Derwent = 27.1% (20% of total system energy)

King = 19.2% (2% of total system energy)

Pieman = 49.8% (4% of total system energy)

Mersey-Forth = 61.1% (4% of total system energy). Production from this source has been limited in recent times by fire damage to transmission lines and also power station maintenance outages. Hence the relatively high level in storage.

Lake Margaret = 22.7% (0.1% of total system energy in storage).

Figures don't add to 100% due to rounding.

Production is presently focused on wind, gas, and hydro from the Great Lake, Gordon, Derwent and on a lesser scale Lake Margaret systems. The other hydro stations are either shut for maintenance (eg the King scheme) or are being held in reserve in case something else goes wrong. The water they have will be used in due course, just not yet (with their lower storage capacity it's wise to keep them fuller in case there's a need to operate at sustained high output, eg if something else breaks).

*As for the diesels, well the first ones are now publicly announced as going at Catagunya and Meadowbank power stations plus some in the Bell Bay area. There are no houses near any of these sites and no schools or things like that either.

Hydro owns the land being used at Catagunya and Meadowbank whilst Tas Networks owns the land at the Bell Bay site.

As background, Catagunya is a small (48 MW) hydro station commissioned in 1962 and Meadowbank has a capacity of 40 MW commissioned in 1967. Both are part of the Derwent catchment and along with 4 others re-use water coming out of Tarraleah and Tungatinah power stations.

Other sites are under consideration for the rest - other power station sites and also some industrial sites. I'm very sure there's no intention of putting them outside someones house however. :)

*Still no idea when Basslink will be fixed. Hydro is now planning on the basis of an extended outage of unknown duration. The plan being implemented is, from a purely technical perspective, sufficient to cope without Basslink permanently. Suffice to say it's not cheap however. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
*Still no idea when Basslink will be fixed. Hydro is now planning on the basis of an extended outage of unknown duration. The plan being implemented is, from a purely technical perspective, sufficient to cope without Basslink permanently. Suffice to say it's not cheap however. :2twocents
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It just keeps getting worse. Still can't find the location of the fault and there are now thoughts that it could be several more months until it's fixed.

Rainfall outlook for March is about average but it's wetter for April and May. The temperature outlook is extreme however (warm that is) so the combination of those two is likely to produce low runoff in March and average at best, quite likely less, in April.

Thinking positively, all I need to do now is connect a generator to the mouse wheel. Mouse power to the rescue!

Next step is to put the male and female mice in the same cage. That should soon bring a bumper crop of mice.

Then with enough mice and a shift work arrangement it should be possible to keep the wheels turning around the clock. And I'm going to have a lot of wheels in a lot of mouse power stations - refer step above about producing more mice to run them.

The mouse powerhouses will each be equipped with mouse-activated warning buttons. White one to be pressed if water runs low. Yellow one if food runs low. Brown one if cleaning is required. Big red one to activate a siren and send the mice into a bunker if a snake or cat is spotted. I would have used blue for the water button but the problem is that mice tend to eat blue plastic, hence using white. No black insulation on the wiring either for the same reason - all to be in colours that mice won't eat.

My new enterprise will be officially known as the Mouse-Electric Commission or MEC for short although most will simply call it "the Mouse". In the unlikely event that anyone actually pays their Mouse bill on time, they'll receive a free piece of cheese sent by post. Also as a special offer for those feeling cold, they'll get a 40% discount if they sign up for MouseHeat.

Those who support my new enterprise can express their support by obtaining a "hands off the Mouse" sticker to be placed on the outside of the meter box, rear window of their car or anywhere else they choose. These will be available from your local ALP candidate just before the next state election.

Those who disagree will probably make their own "No Mouse" stickers in the form of a bright yellow triangle and put them just about everywhere to support their campaign of keeping mice wild and not generating power. 20 years later I'll be asking them if they can give me the exact details of their sticker and banner design since I now want one to put in my Mouse Power museum and forgot to grab some back in the day despite thousands of them having been produced at the time. Surprisingly, they'll actually agree to give me one since they were always well organised and kept plenty of spares.

Slightly more seriously, I also need a shotgun. That's just in case anyone tries stealing my pile of firewood, gas bottles, solar panels or the mouse food. The way things are going these could become rather valuable. :eek:
 
Smurf1976 said:
It just keeps getting worse. Still can't find the location of the fault and there are now thoughts that it could be several more months until it's fixed.

Rainfall outlook for March is about average but it's wetter for April and May. The temperature outlook is extreme however (warm that is) so the combination of those two is likely to produce low runoff in March and average at best, quite likely less, in April.

Thinking positively, all I need to do now is connect a generator to the mouse wheel. Mouse power to the rescue!

Next step is to put the male and female mice in the same cage. That should soon bring a bumper crop of mice.

Then with enough mice and a shift work arrangement it should be possible to keep the wheels turning around the clock. And I'm going to have a lot of wheels in a lot of mouse power stations - refer step above about producing more mice to run them.

The mouse powerhouses will each be equipped with mouse-activated warning buttons. White one to be pressed if water runs low. Yellow one if food runs low. Brown one if cleaning is required. Big red one to activate a siren and send the mice into a bunker if a snake or cat is spotted. I would have used blue for the water button but the problem is that mice tend to eat blue plastic, hence using white. No black insulation on the wiring either for the same reason - all to be in colours that mice won't eat.

My new enterprise will be officially known as the Mouse-Electric Commission or MEC for short although most will simply call it "the Mouse". In the unlikely event that anyone actually pays their Mouse bill on time, they'll receive a free piece of cheese sent by post. Also as a special offer for those feeling cold, they'll get a 40% discount if they sign up for MouseHeat.

Those who support my new enterprise can express their support by obtaining a "hands off the Mouse" sticker to be placed on the outside of the meter box, rear window of their car or anywhere else they choose. These will be available from your local ALP candidate just before the next state election.

Those who disagree will probably make their own "No Mouse" stickers in the form of a bright yellow triangle and put them just about everywhere to support their campaign of keeping mice wild and not generating power. 20 years later I'll be asking them if they can give me the exact details of their sticker and banner design since I now want one to put in my Mouse Power museum and forgot to grab some back in the day despite thousands of them having been produced at the time. Surprisingly, they'll actually agree to give me one since they were always well organised and kept plenty of spares.

Slightly more seriously, I also need a shotgun. That's just in case anyone tries stealing my pile of firewood, gas bottles, solar panels or the mouse food. The way things are going these could become rather valuable. :eek:
Click to expand...

So smart and a sense of humour as well !

A rare combination. :cool:

That last post of yours should be filed away in "Classic General Chat", a masterpiece.

I'm sure you will get plenty of crowd funding for your mouse project. Watch out for the feral cats though.

:D
 
Maybe they should hire some electrical engineers. There are ways to send signals down cables to find faults.

Unfortunately running power organisations with accountants, lawyers, project managers and spin doctors doesn't lead to good results.

Just typical. I'm for hire if they can get their heads out of their bums.
 
Knobby22 said:
Maybe they should hire some electrical engineers. There are ways to send signals down cables to find faults.

Unfortunately running power organisations with accountants, lawyers, project managers and spin doctors doesn't lead to good results.

Just typical. I'm for hire if they can get their heads out of their bums.
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is it just me or by sending pulse and changing frequencies while listening to the "echo"/reflection, you should be able to pinpoint an issue pretty quickly,
I doubt there are any "repeater" along the way!!! Anyway, yeap, they may need to use their/some brain
 
Knobby22 said:
Maybe they should hire some electrical engineers. There are ways to send signals down cables to find faults.

Unfortunately running power organisations with accountants, lawyers, project managers and spin doctors doesn't lead to good results.
Click to expand...

Hydro still has massive internal engineering and technical capability. It doesn't have the 5000+ workforce it once had during the construction era but it still has a lot of capability as such.

Basslink is privately owned however and I've said plenty in the past about the troubles when things are outsourced (as Basslink effectively is, albeit by outright private ownership but it's still basically a form of outsourcing given the arrangements which underpin it). :2twocents
 
First Melbourne cab off the rank...

First Tesla Powerwall installed in Greens leader Greg Barber’s Brunswick West home​


IT’S been called the iPhone of the renewable energy scene and is being hailed as a game-changer.

The first Tesla Powerwall in Melbourne has been installed in Brunswick West and owner Greg Barber, the Victorian Greens leader, believes it is the start of a huge consumer change towards solar power.

Consumer organisation Choice agrees, with the solar power storage device finally making renewable energy more economical for families.
Click to expand...


Choice energy reporter Chris Doyle said at about $12,000 for a battery and inverter, the Tesla Powerwall was still outside the price range of the average consumer, but early adopters and those who highly valued the environmental benefits were likely to purchase systems.
Click to expand...


 
Saw this on Bloomberg recently and someone put it up on Youtube.

Nice short vid

​
 
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SirRumpole said:
And the electricity to run these vehicles will come from ?
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Mice. :p:

Seriously, even if the source of the power is fossil fuels then it's still no worse than a petrol engine and in most applications more efficient to be using electric transport. :2twocents
 
SirRumpole said:
And the electricity to run these vehicles will come from ?
Click to expand...

For a start you could go to last sundays landline and what one lady is doing with pig **** in Young, she's now got that much electicity she doesn't know what to do with it... and solar just keeps getting cheaper ...
Look at this little buggy

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-ne...the-electric-beach-buggy-you-can-buy-in-2016/

nearly 200km on less than what comes off the roof of a 5kw system on a good day.

Good day.
 
Smurf1976 said:
Mice. :p:

Seriously, even if the source of the power is fossil fuels then it's still no worse than a petrol engine and in most applications more efficient to be using electric transport. :2twocents
Click to expand...

I think diesel electric hybrids is the way to go.

The best of both worlds.
 
SirRumpole said:
I think diesel electric
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"Diesel" and "electric" are words I'm hoping we don't have to associate with each other too much down here in Tas.

Storage down to 16.1% as of a few hours ago and it seems to have become almost a sport with people speculating on the weekly updates. As I saw on another forum, whoever gets closest wins a box of candles...

Given that nothing else is going right, the next plan is to try and make it rain. No rain dances (tried that, went outside and found that the sun was shining so must have done something wrong). So its planes and some science and getting underway at the beginning of April. Going to do farms as well this year since they've dried out too. Now we just need some suitable clouds.

If all else fails well then there's diesel. Not yet at the point where they're needed but the first ones will be ready to go next week and we'll have 100 connected to the grid by the end of March and 200 by the end of April. This could get rather interesting (and noisy, smelly and expensive).

One thing's pretty certain though. It will rain, probably starting about 3 seconds after Basslink is fixed then the next crisis ends up being a flood. :banghead:
 
orr said:
For a start you could go to last sundays landline and what one lady is doing with pig **** in Young, she's now got that much electicity she doesn't know what to do with it... and solar just keeps getting cheaper ...
Look at this little buggy

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-ne...the-electric-beach-buggy-you-can-buy-in-2016/

nearly 200km on less than what comes off the roof of a 5kw system on a good day.

Good day.
Click to expand...

so this thing has a 30 kWh battery and will do 200 k's on it's charge
@ 25c per kWh and 40 Kwh needed to charge it = $10 or $5 per 100K
(average mains meter buy price?)

If you're on a sell back deal for solar @ 60c per kWh - buy a Jeep
If you sell power at 7c per kWh, Charge that car and drive around with a smug look.
If you don't have your own solar setup - buy a jeep

But, in a few years car rego will cost > $5000 per year. No way is the tax man going to write off the fuel excise
if reaps in off of oil fuels. The time to buy an electric car is now, before everyone jumps on the bandwagon.
Once they are common - there'll be no significant cost benefit in owning them.

I've got an old 2000kg land rover that costs me ~ $11 per 100k
Most of that $11 dollars is government excise - diesel is dirt cheap, it's the tax that is expensive!
 
A shopping centre in Perth has plastered much of its roof in solar panels,

The Broadway Fair complex has installed 948 solar panels with the capacity to generate 312 kilowatts of power.

Broadway Fair general manager Paul Avon-Smith said the move would save the complex about $20,000 a month in power bills, which could be put towards funding capital works.

"We were looking for soft approach for the cost of doing capital works," Mr Avon-Smith said.

"It gives us an alternative to help cushion rent increases and price rises for our tenant base in a pretty tough market, but allows us to finance crucial capital works.

"So that allowed us to do a roof replacement project, plus put the solar in, with there being no upward pressure on our rents for tenants."

Infinite Energy installed the system at a cost of $600,000.

Managing director Aidan Jenkins said the huge fall in the cost of solar panels in recent years has meant the business model now stacked up for commercial-sized installations.

"Solar currently represents the cheapest way to generate electricity, so we will start to see these type of systems become the norm over the next couple of years."
Click to expand...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-...shopping-centre-wa-largest/7217984?section=wa

The implied install cost per kW from the above numbers is $1923.

Annual generation (based on 2,500kWh/1.5kW) would be 520,000kWh. A bit less, say, 480,000kWh may be more realistic given varying panel orientation. $20,000 per month of savings from grid electricity equates to $240,000 per annum or $0.50/kWh. If the centre uses all it generates (no feed in), the implication is the grid cost of electricity to the centre is therefore $0.50/kWh which is much higher than the WA residential A1 (flat) rate. The article doesn't indicate whether or not there's an element of battery storage as part of the system.
 

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