Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

i share very similar views to those you have discussed above, but surely our housing market isnt entirely dependent on the performance of the world economy? there must be some underlying factors here at home holding prices at current, other than just sentiment? or is it wholly based on whether the world forces us into recession that we will see it plummet? i have no doubt that global issues will have a huge affect on our market, especially in regards to foreign investors, but to what extent i am unsure of at this point.

mr triguboff(Meriton) is the first to admit in some instances upwards of 50% of his apartment sales are to foreign investors, however is beginning to decline rapidly. this to has contributed to the perfect storm, and the government should have been far more strict regarding this issue imo.

I see the issue as the % of foreign funding in our resi market. Any persistent "risk off" trade will see the AUD go south concomitantly our cost of OS funding rise leaving the banks in the situation that they will need to increase rates and or reduce lending despite what the RBA may do. When I say sentiment it is more the worlds risk appetite and their view of our markets primarily and our reaction to those conditions secondarily.

In a similar vein I am keeping an eye on the Feds operation twist, it could well result in a sell off in the ten year note that they cannot contain. The ten year dictates the US cost of mortgage funds which in turn feeds into our markets. If US bonds do enter into a bear market that could well change the game as well.

There are other things that are concerning, odd things like the Greek bond haircut being 'voluntary' and not being considered a default. That is an end run around the credit default swap market and one that I suggest will be challenged. Should it hold the CDS market will price in (is pricing in?) the event and will drive up the cost of insuring certain debt which will in turn limit debt issuance which will increase competition for all available funds and tighten all debt markets. Admittedly that is drawing a long bow at this point but its odd things like this that get legs and catch people off guard. The unintended consequences of, and market reactions to government actions are ripe with opportunity to spear us off in an unsought direction.

Really who knows but the situation looks loaded with potential.
 
The main contributor to a decent fall in Oz RE will be unemployment.

As stated by myself on more than one occassion is that a 10% fall from peak median national prices is only a healthy correction, above that and we might just see a crash.

But while unemployment is low and people are still confident that there is plenty of work around to keep paying their mortgage and I cannot see a rush to the gates and a significant drop in prices.

Could we see a real slow down in the Oz economy due to global events, hell yes, will it happen, more than likely yes, when will it happen. I could be in the grave before it does.

Cheers

What about 10%+ rates regardless of the employment situation? Remember that rates are not wholly in the RBAs control. IMO that would do it.
 
While general home and business rates do not necessiarly follow the RBA, I feel we are at a critical point in Aus in so far as growth seems to be flattening off.

If for example the RBA did lower rates and the banks didn't match it, it might just be enough to cause a bit more slowing of demand.

The other thing to consider is the $10,000 building grant runs out in a couple of months.

The grant running out and no interest rate cut is a recipe for cheaper prices in the short term I suspect... unless those grants are extended.
 
hello,

gidday brothers, great posts, superb

and well done to those who road the credit based real estate boom, top effort,

yeah well done to everybody who is making money whether from real estate, shares, FX, cfd's, flipping burgers

great achievements

i reckon this category of people should get down to Fed Square and set up a few tents to voice our concerns about the freeride many people in the community are getting, the injustice of the handout, taking and not contributing, freeloaders

thankyou

professor robots
 
Just a quick note for those that think that renters are drying up and that landlords may need to take a haircut. The tenants in my Northern Beaches (Sydney) unit decided to vacate after renting from me for 15 Months. The agent called me and said we should do a Wednesday afternoon open for rental inspection. On that inspection I had 7 groups of people through looking, 5 took applications and the next day one was lodged and accepted by the agent at full asking rental of $430 p/w. They paid a bond of 4 weeks rent and 2 weeks rent in advance. There are no shortages of tenants in my area and prices are holding firm and I am very happy with my investment.
 
Just a quick note for those that think that renters are drying up and that landlords may need to take a haircut. The tenants in my Northern Beaches (Sydney) unit decided to vacate after renting from me for 15 Months. The agent called me and said we should do a Wednesday afternoon open for rental inspection. On that inspection I had 7 groups of people through looking, 5 took applications and the next day one was lodged and accepted by the agent at full asking rental of $430 p/w. They paid a bond of 4 weeks rent and 2 weeks rent in advance. There are no shortages of tenants in my area and prices are holding firm and I am very happy with my investment.

Good on ya Bill.

I actually agree with you that while property prices may fall a bit, rental rates will stay firm.

I owned rental property in the 80's making 25% in the bank for a bit over three years investment. I can relate to you tennancy demand. Back then I hardly missed a days rent. I would put an advert in the paper the day the tennent moved out, drive down to bris to clean up if necessary and sign in a new tennant from a list of prospects immediatly.

I'm getting interested in property again cos I'm thinking good rental occupancy rates and returns will be here for some time as property prises rise again in the longer term.
 
Good on ya Bill.

I actually agree with you that while property prices may fall a bit, rental rates will stay firm.

I owned rental property in the 80's making 25% in the bank for a bit over three years investment. I can relate to you tennancy demand. Back then I hardly missed a days rent. I would put an advert in the paper the day the tennent moved out, drive down to bris to clean up if necessary and sign in a new tennant from a list of prospects immediatly.

I'm getting interested in property again cos I'm thinking good rental occupancy rates and returns will be here for some time as property prises rise again in the longer term.

I agree there bro. Just ride this dip in property prices out. Rent it. Good stuff. Lots of young families will need housing soon. Great concept. Rba TO LEAVE RATES ON HOLD. bUT WHO CARES. BANKS WILL DO WHAT THEY LIKE ;-)
 
Well you either pay the banks to get your house title or you pay the landlord to get his.
I know what I would prefer.

Young gun, I dont know of anyone that didnt both work when they bought their first home.
 
Good on ya Bill.

I actually agree with you that while property prices may fall a bit, rental rates will stay firm.

I owned rental property in the 80's making 25% in the bank for a bit over three years investment. I can relate to you tennancy demand. Back then I hardly missed a days rent. I would put an advert in the paper the day the tennent moved out, drive down to bris to clean up if necessary and sign in a new tennant from a list of prospects immediatly.

I'm getting interested in property again cos I'm thinking good rental occupancy rates and returns will be here for some time as property prises rise again in the longer term.

rental rates will only hold provided prices dont fall too much. tennancy demand should hold in a downturn provided landlords drop their rent price with interest rates, as these will undoubtedly come down as prices fall. this will only work if the downturn lasts short-term. long-term and large falls and it all goes out the window.
 
I agree there bro. Just ride this dip in property prices out. Rent it. Good stuff. Lots of young families will need housing soon. Great concept. Rba TO LEAVE RATES ON HOLD. bUT WHO CARES. BANKS WILL DO WHAT THEY LIKE ;-)


not enough families coming through to support prices.
 
rental rates will only hold provided prices dont fall too much. tennancy demand should hold in a downturn provided landlords drop their rent price with interest rates, as these will undoubtedly come down as prices fall. this will only work if the downturn lasts short-term. long-term and large falls and it all goes out the window.

I think you will find that rental prices are much more sensitive to vacancy rates than interest rates or property price movements. For example, vacancy rates in many areas of Melbourne are still near historic lows and rents are firm or rising. Don't expect big falls in rental prices just because house prices or interest rates fall, these factors are not as correlated as you assume here.
 
I think you will find that rental prices are much more sensitive to vacancy rates than interest rates or property price movements. For example, vacancy rates in many areas of Melbourne are still near historic lows and rents are firm or rising. Don't expect big falls in rental prices just because house prices or interest rates fall, these factors are not as correlated as you assume here.


the more interest rates fall, and the more house prices fall, the more attractive and more affordable home ownership becomes. how can this not be a factor largely affecting rental income? as i said, short term probably wont make a difference, but if prices continue to slide you will most definitely see less demand for rentals. and as investors pick up bargains and low interest rates remain, new landlords will be entering the market with cheaper rentals as there costs are less than yours.

on the other hand it could be argued that if house prices are falling unemployment will be rising, and given the economy will be in bad shape meaning less people will be able to afford a new or even existing homes regardless of prices, in turn keeping your rental rate at reasonable levels.

ive actually got no idea;)
 
rental rates will only hold provided prices dont fall too much. tennancy demand should hold in a downturn provided landlords drop their rent price with interest rates, as these will undoubtedly come down as prices fall. this will only work if the downturn lasts short-term. long-term and large falls and it all goes out the window.

There is one dynamic that I think you are forgetting or unaware of atm.

Since the GFC Aus savings rates have increased quite a bit, ie people are putting away more savings into various forms and reducing debt. They do not wish to carry the same level of debt they did previously.

The implications of this is slower demand for both new house construction (despite gov incentives) as well as slower established house sales.

The higher rate of savings also has implications for slower land development for new houses.

Collectively, this higher savings dynamic causes this cycle to be a bit different to recent cycles, in particular strong rental demand despite the movement in property prices.
 
IME rent growth is 'somewhat' inversely correlated with price growth and did see a graph somewhere to that effect.
 
trainspotter said:
Clearly your myopic view of RE is misguided by your own sense of comprehension of the matter at hand. Prices WERE NOT CHEAPER back then. You really need to do some research before posting.

In 1991 the average median house price was $121,125 http://www.econ.mq.edu.au/research/2...elson_9_04.pdf

In 1991 the average income was $17,614 http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@....3?opendocument

So therefore this would be 7 times the average income in 1991. So what has changed?

EASY CREDIT ...... you could get a house and land package deal with $500 deposit and a job. Financiers would loan you 95% LVR and compound the interest and the LMI into the loan taking borrowings past 100%.

But you know all of this because you have studied and trade in RE ....... :rolleyes:
The ABS pdf you linked to says average weekly total earnings in 1991 was $596/week. How does that equate to $17k/year?

I would really be interested in knowing the answer to this...:)
 
There is one dynamic that I think you are forgetting or unaware of atm.

Since the GFC Aus savings rates have increased quite a bit, ie people are putting away more savings into various forms and reducing debt. They do not wish to carry the same level of debt they did previously.

The implications of this is slower demand for both new house construction (despite gov incentives) as well as slower established house sales.

The higher rate of savings also has implications for slower land development for new houses.

Collectively, this higher savings dynamic causes this cycle to be a bit different to recent cycles, in particular strong rental demand despite the movement in property prices.

i wasnt aware of this. i was aware that credit growth is slowing, whether the 2 are related im unsure, but would expect they are in some way. it cant be argued that rental prices and demand are not strong at the moment. im simply curious as to whether this will be the case if this downward trend were to continue.
 
it cant be argued that rental prices and demand are not strong at the moment. im simply curious as to whether this will be the case if this downward trend were to continue.

property prices and rents do not move to the beat of the same drum.

Property prices decreasing does not mean rents will decrease, and property prices rising does not mean rents will increase.
 
property prices and rents do not move to the beat of the same drum.

Property prices decreasing does not mean rents will decrease, and property prices rising does not mean rents will increase.

is it not naive to think that a strong move in either direction would not ultimately have some affect on rental income? whether it be positive or negative. it surely cannot be completely dismissed. if everyone is of this opinion then perhaps i am barking up the wrong tree in a big way.
 
is it not naive to think that a strong move in either direction would not ultimately have some affect on rental income? whether it be positive or negative. it surely cannot be completely dismissed. if everyone is of this opinion then perhaps i am barking up the wrong tree in a big way.

Rents are determined by the market supply and demand,

Supply of dwellings available to be rented vs Amount of people wanting to rent them determines the rental price.

Prices of houses may fluctuate, But how do you see this affecting the supply and demand of houses on the rental market,

Say 100,000 people all sell their houses today at any cost, It would crash the house prices, those 100,000 houses might end up in the renting market and increase the supply, However those 100,000 home owners we also endup renting in the market and will soak up the extra supply.

So the net effect is zero,

House prices won't affect rent, only 1. extra supply of properties available for rent without any increase in renters 2. renters leaving a certain market. will reduce prices.
 
No, people will sell or be foreclosed on and live in their cars, move in with family or rent a caravan in some ones back yard like they did in the 80's and this will put more property's on the rental market at a lower price and if the land lord buys he will most like reduce rents to cover costs only.
 
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