The future of Australian property prices

moXJO said:

Because it costs too much(plus excess book work) for the main contractor to put you on wages. The workers comp alone for a decent wage is up to and over $9k on $60k wages add super and taxes and it's easier to just hire subbies.
So the majority of the time unless you have an abn then you don't get work. Oh and the going rate for a lot of tradies in this situation is $35 an hour.
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I get this point, but the goal posts for arguments keep changing. There is a difference between doing purely subcontractor work and working for yourself, and at times both of us use whichever side we see best illustrates our point.

$35 per hour, which trade are you referring to?

moXJO said:

That 250k is for maximum work cover fines for a major safety breach, not being sued.
As an example; If I have 3 guys above 2.1 meters with no harness then that’s 5k a pop and $500 personal fine for them. And the rules and regulations are many. If someone is doing something stupid, falls and dies I am up for manslaughter and $250k. Given that workers will do something without thinking fines can add up even with good safety systems in place.
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Goalposts have moved again, in this situation you have employees. I have stated that my goalposts are around a 1 man show.

But here I go anyway.

OH&S applies tp any business. If I was a GP and instructed my practice nurse to sterilise an instrument and they failed to do so, my company still takes the fall, I get fined, sueued and quite possibly deregistered.

moXJO said:

Oh I've never run a company Obviously someone hasn't
Umm this is where you’re talking out your A$$. The house often goes up as security for material accounts even if it’s in your wife’s name
And if you start mixing business with personal assets you lose the personal assets.
Eg: I buy material and use it on the house, or pay tradies from the company to fix up the house. I then go bankrupt over a bad debt. They will link it and deem the house up for grabs. I know this because my friend got done in this exact manner. You keep the business separate from personal assets..

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Giving personal guarantees are we? tsk tsk. Perhaps this is a warning to people to put the asset in the correct name when starting a business. Not all houses need to be in personal names, and the house in the personal name can be encumbered with the asset value being in a non-personal, untouchable entity.

the PTY LTD should protect you.

moXJO said:

What are we??? Fu*ken hippies that live out of vans. Are you the type of dolt that thinks we run off with a hammer and a ute and get work all day? FFS for someone that has such a concrete idea of how tradies go about business of making money to roll in, your actual business strategy for us is lacking. You are talking about guys on what more or less equates to wages or less because they get stiffed with insurances, gst and their own book work. There is a long list of expenses exactly the same as any other business. You are also talking about guys that rort the tax system and let me tell you they don't last long. And yes there are a lot of real scum bag trades out there. But a lot are the average business owner with average business problems.

Good luck with prices coming down. There is a whole safety industry full of bureaucratic BS leaching off us. These are the ex union guys, ex pollies and a host of others that happily make life more costly for you. It increases costs and time spent on the job and it's not going away. As a tradie you get wrapped up in that much red tape from unions or workcover that it's amazing any work gets done. The latest thing seems to be training courses you have to participate in if you want to work in certain conditions (eg: at heights, tagging elec tools, ewp and so on).
There was plenty of work before the FHOG and will be plenty after. So long as the mining boom is going there will be a shortage of tradies. Unless we get massive deflation don't be holding your breathe for prices to come down

Why I argue with someone that obviously has no idea about the construction business yet thinks he does is beyond me: You get me riled up soft D, but we always have Rudd bashing to bond over
Oh and another thing building a reasonable size houses is cheap. Building a fricken McMansion that could double as an elephant enclosure and football field ain't.

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M, I have seen mechanics run multimillion dollar businesses out of 1 ute ( and they work on heavy machinery ) Plumbers, electricians, painters etc have no need for anything more than a ute, and a household shed, evidenced by the large amount who conduct good businesses with nothing more.

Please tell me truthfully that the internet connection and computer you are using to respond to me are not being used as a tax deduction. Tell me that you only use your mobile for work use, your ute for work etc. luxuries not available to others. Small business owners rort the system.

If you are confident that the work will be there, that wages will remain as they are if a government competent enough to see that the first home vendors boost is a negative for the economy removes it, why do you defend it. Or am I misinterpreting your posts, and you think that it does not have an effect on tradies incomes.

joeyr46 said:

and unlike the medical profession your supposed to actually finish the job succesfully with a guarantee, whereas they ask you to try this and if your stil ill come back next week end try something else
User pays sounds good but only if a successful outcome, Yes all for it

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Haha, the eternal argument. Have you heard of specificity, sensitivity, likelihood ratios etc. They are terms which allow health professionals to make the best possible diagnosis of a condition with the evidence available. Inherent in their definitions is that they are not 100% accurate, and in reality can never be.

Unfortunately, the practice of medicine revolves around uncertainty of diagnosis and response to treatment as the human body is highly variable, infinitely exquisite and unfortunately most of the important information comes from the patient and recall/interpretation is very unreliable.

Please refrain from only classifying "successful outcome" as ideal outcome as all the steps, even unsuccessful treatment is utilised in the treatment plans of a human being. Treatments do need to be given a time to ascertain efficacy, and patient variability, as explained by the genetic, mental and social variables ( to name a few ) is extraordinary.

I am sure that you, doing a tough job which includes assessment and treatment and takes 3 hours, still charge the 3 hours even if the actual "effective work" only takes 10 minutes.

Caution is also paramount as decisions are made that can affect not only lives, but also quality of life. Not easy to do.

Soft Dough, just out of interest, what is your actual occupation.

drsmith said:

This has to take the cake.

http://www.realestate.com.au/reales...+headland+port+hedland/zpcayz/page2/106197020

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If anyone wants to pay me $1mil a piece for these I'll see what I can pick up.

At that price expected rental returns of approximately 8.5% per annum coupled with great depreciation benefits represents an excellent investment. You won't get that from a bank.

For the first three buyers I'll include a complimentary Chinese flag as part of the deal.

Macquack said:

Soft Dough, just out of interest, what is your actual occupation.

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Retired, yours.

Soft Dough said:

Retired, yours.

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Building contractor. What was your actual occupation prior to retiring?

rcm617 said:

By the way I think medicare is a massive subsidy for the health care practitioners.

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Really? So how would you prefer them to be paid? Do you think all their patient base would be able to pay the cost of a visit to a GP, e.g., when you consider income for the doctor, tax, all the practice expenses, etc etc?

There is already a huge group of people who can only afford to visit a doctor if he/she bulk bills.

If we as taxpayers are not prepared to fund the health system, I don't know what you would consider to be a more appropriate use of our tax dollars.

(Apologies to those who find this a hijacking of the thread topic.)

I get this point, but the goal posts for arguments keep changing. There is a difference between doing purely subcontractor work and working for yourself, and at times both of us use whichever side we see best illustrates our point.

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Again you don't understand the business. Construction workers source their work from where ever the work is at a given time. That means a mix of subbie or your own jobs no work is generally consistent. It is rare for people to stick it out as subbie for one company likewise if times are lean you tend to subbie out. Of course there can be a lot of other factors or reasons. The goal posts ain't moving it's just that you take on what work is best at any given time for whatever reason.

Goalposts have moved again, in this situation you have employees. I have stated that my goalposts are around a 1 man show.

But here I go anyway.

OH&S applies tp any business. If I was a GP and instructed my practice nurse to sterilise an instrument and they failed to do so, my company still takes the fall, I get fined, sueued and quite possibly deregistered.

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Wrong again.... In a pty ltd company you are deemed as an employee so all those lovely fines apply to you too. Sole trader can escape that wrath to a degree. But then we wouldn't follow your other rules of pty ltd. As for the doctor different kettle of fish I'm not talking about being sued. Construction industry is unique in the fines they give out regarding workplace. It is very rare you would get a work cover official in a doctor’s office. But on a construction site handing out fines daily can be the norm. And man do they love handing out fines.

Giving personal guarantees are we? tsk tsk. Perhaps this is a warning to people to put the asset in the correct name when starting a business. Not all houses need to be in personal names, and the house in the personal name can be encumbered with the asset value being in a non-personal, untouchable entity.

the PTY LTD should protect you.

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Yes and you can wrap it up anyway you like and still lose it No guarantee no material. Suppliers have generally seen these schemes before. You can get away without them depending on how much you need. And if your lucky and on the small amount side the cheap solution can be the house in wifes name.
But the thing about ITSA if they want it they will find the link between business and asset and get it. If you leave trace of a link they will find it. Pty Ltd will not protect you in a lot of cases. You can talk these schemes up but it is a different case in reality for a number of reasons.

Please tell me truthfully that the internet connection and computer you are using to respond to me are not being used as a tax deduction. Tell me that you only use your mobile for work use, your ute for work etc. luxuries not available to others. Small business owners rort the system.

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The internet no, but the phone is, and so is the utes and vans (and yes only used for work). Not sure where your living but tax deduction are available to anyone not just tradies. If I trade shares for a living I can claim the net.

M, I have seen mechanics run multimillion dollar businesses out of 1 ute ( and they work on heavy machinery ) Plumbers, electricians, painters etc have no need for anything more than a ute, and a household shed, evidenced by the large amount who conduct good businesses with nothing more.

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I dunno... multimillion dollar and in a household shed and a ute

If you are confident that the work will be there, that wages will remain as they are if a government competent enough to see that the first home vendors boost is a negative for the economy removes it, why do you defend it. Or am I misinterpreting your posts, and you think that it does not have an effect on tradies incomes

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Yeah I don't actually care about FHOG and could care less if they take it away. I actually don't see it affecting wages that much considering you have to chase the work in the first place. If anything the School building has made a bigger shortage of trades in some areas atm. But the schools are a major pain in the a$$ due to the total lack of any organization or structure, and the amount of paper work and bs that goes on. In other areas tradies are real quiet. But it’s always been a mix. I don't see trades wages changing that much if they are positioned right. All the minnows may panic and get desperate at times but normally bounce back

My issue is with the illusion that all tradies are making a fortune which is just not anywhere near the case. It's the same with any business if you run it well and look after the customer you make money. There are some shonks and others that provide a good service the same as any business. I think there are bigger factors at play then just govt stimulus affecting house prices. However govt interference along with China/ mining boom and the trickle down is another matter.

Julia said:

Really? So how would you prefer them to be paid? Do you think all their patient base would be able to pay the cost of a visit to a GP, e.g., when you consider income for the doctor, tax, all the practice expenses, etc etc?

There is already a huge group of people who can only afford to visit a doctor if he/she bulk bills.

If we as taxpayers are not prepared to fund the health system, I don't know what you would consider to be a more appropriate use of our tax dollars.

(Apologies to those who find this a hijacking of the thread topic.)

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We certainly need a safety net for those who cannot afford to go to a doctor, but the present setup is a recipe for inefficiencies and only helps to push up wages to unacceptable levels. Just look at the recent cataract surgery rebate debacle, when opthalmologists used their elderly patients as publicity to stop the government reducing their rebate from $620 for a 20 min procedure, despite new technology making this a relatively simple procedure. If thats not gouging the taxpayer from these highly paid individuals I dont know what is. We would have a far more efficient system if those that can afford to pay, paid and those who couldnt had to pay a percentage. Maybe they would then take a bit of responsibility for their own health.
As it is now a lot of people in the bush dont have much of a health service because practitioners would rather work part time in the city rather than go to the bush. Our hospitals dont cope with emergency cases waiting to get admitted for hours.
Apologies also as this is starting to stray from the thread.

gee, just popped in to say

hi to robots, and the other property people...

boy have you other guys gone way off topic.....

just wondering , are you all expecting another rate rise next week..?

I am not....but then I cannot trust stevens to read the economy correctly...
but he will get it right eventually....its anything but rosy out there....

he should wait until most of the data comes out in mid April....to get a true reading....

some might need to put on a hard hat.....for when the brakes come on...

how are the grasshoppers these days.....

Wow - justed popped in for a look too. Do you think we could start a new thread on the price of contractors? And keep this thread on property prices...?

Rates, I think, are likely to screw me again on tuesday! I have a lot of debt, and earn USD - so I am coping in from both ways with this current market.
(whats that I hear - a violin )

I have my fingers crossed that they will take pity on me, and wait until April data.

Im not sure about grasshopers? but have you seen the price of mops lately???

Soft Dough said:

Haha, the eternal argument. Have you heard of specificity, sensitivity, likelihood ratios etc. They are terms which allow health professionals to make the best possible diagnosis of a condition with the evidence available. Inherent in their definitions is that they are not 100% accurate, and in reality can never be.

Unfortunately, the practice of medicine revolves around uncertainty of diagnosis and response to treatment as the human body is highly variable, infinitely exquisite and unfortunately most of the important information comes from the patient and recall/interpretation is very unreliable.

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Exact same situation applies to servicing of electrical control systems etc. Very hard to know what's wrong when the fault is intermittent, happens once every few days and you've never seen it happen yourself but must fix it anyway.

And yes, stuff ups with such things may also endanger human life depending on the situation.

If the trades were so great then it wouldn't be hard to get apprentices and there wouldn't be the constant exodus of trades people to other careers. In my experience, the ones who stick at it for the long term (more than 20 years) are either small time contractors who've established a good reputation and can charge accordingly (and not worry about knocking back unpleasant jobs) or have established careers with large organisations offering continuous work. Most of the rest get sick of it and do something else because it's not as great as it looks to outsiders.

A few bits and pieces from The Daily Telegraph Today.
Full Story by clicking this link here.
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Sky's no limit for real estate prices across Sydney

SYDNEY'S property market is heating to unprecedented levels, with prices soaring even though more real estate is for sale than ever before.

In suburban Sydney, growth during the latter half of 2009 pushed annual averages close to or just past previous peaks.

APM economist Matthew Bell said the real estate market was now as hot as it was in late 2003 and early 2004.

"If things continue in the same vein as they did over the last six months it will be in the strongest we've seen," Mr Bell said.

I'm a bit surprised to see the media talking about this as it may damage the relationship it has with it's advertising revenue property spruikers. Looks very risky for business to me. Also, how's the house price ponzi scheme supposed to suck in new buyers with articles like this? The name of the author of the article has been suppressed I see - interesting...

Homeowners 'overpaid' for houses

A QUARTER of Sydney homeowners who bought and sold their properties during the past five years lost money.

Smurf1976 said:

Exact same situation applies to servicing of electrical control systems etc. Very hard to know what's wrong when the fault is intermittent, happens once every few days and you've never seen it happen yourself but must fix it anyway.

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And i bet if there are multiple visits required the customer is charged for all visits not just the inital one.

Soft Dough said:

And i bet if there are multiple visits required the customer is charged for all visits not just the inital one.

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They would only charge if they planned on feeding their families that day.

Now that rates have been raised yet again, and will continue to be raised, I wonder if the 250k new homeowners over the past year, will be voting for Rudd next year.

Will they really be thanking him for the FHOG bribe? Will they really care that the RBA is a non political body?

I can see some social unrest coming. No doubt, the papers with vested interests in the property market, will not cover this.

UBIQUITOUS said:

Now that rates have been raised yet again, and will continue to be raised, I wonder if the 250k new homeowners over the past year, will be voting for Rudd next year.

Will they really be thanking him for the FHOG bribe? Will they really care that the RBA is a non political body?

I can see some social unrest coming. No doubt, the papers with vested interests in the property market, will not cover this.

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Back off envelope stuff but if borrowed $250k that eq to $365 per wk to be on the path to own your own home. In my mind that is about or near to the ave rent (dep which state you live) and i know ownership has its on costs v renting but better to have some asset at the end than not ???? Its the old argument rent money is dead money and i know some will make the point that with what you "could" save it might be better invested elsewhere but in this "i've got to have that new plasma" age and Australians being noted for not being the best savers in the world and home ownership has been the kill two birds with one stone asset (roof over head, investment) for years and imo will take a huge correction event to change the mindset.

Great news IR's up.

Fantastic our economy has survived the GFC and is on the path to recover

Hope to see them back around 5% by the end of the year.

Oh, forgot about all those teaser rates offered to FHB last year, they must start resetting soon.

Oh well, they did get free taxpayers money of KRUDD and the govnuts.

Cheers

I heard a few fho at my work place sqeeling today when the raise was announced. Those that were foolish enough to take loans of 400 - 450 at the lure of the grant will have alot more sqeeling to do with future rises.

Makes me wonder how much longer the bubble can stretch. It is usually when market is at full pace and confidence that the walls start to shake ....