The Elephant in the room - Taxation

[farmerge]

I’m sure Grim Jim is running the ruler over the value of introducing a death tax

No doubt but Sid Negus all those years ago got into the Senate on abolish the death tax and from memory was instrumental in its demise. Would any half dead, dim witted pollie want to revist it,???????

 

[MovingAverage]

No doubt but Sid Negus all those years ago got into the Senate on abolish the death tax and from memory was instrumental in its demise. Would any half dead, dim witted pollie want to revist it,???????

There’s plenty of half dead, dim witted pollies so I reckon we will see the Albo clowns raise this for discussion within the next 12/18 months

 

[Value Collector]

I just don’t understand this logic…why does the government have the right to impose a tax just because dynastic wealth passes from one generation to the next. I just do not understand why this is ok. This will no doubt involve assets that various government have managed to impose other taxes in the past—double dipping if you ask me. I say no to any death tax no matter the amount involved.

Because without a death tax, it can allow large accumulated untaxed wealth to pass along in perpetuity without a tax event ever occurring.

For example, the Elons Musks, Bezos and Zuckerberg etc of the world have large accumulated capital gains that won’t be taxed until they eventually sell their shares and trigger a capital gains tax event.

I have no problem with them accumulating capital gains for the 50 or 60 years of their working careers, but I believe at some stage those large dynasties need to be taxed.

I think when they die, before that fortune gets passed along to the next generation it should trigger some sort of tax event.

 

[divs4ever]

I hear you—the way Grim Jim talks you’d think our super is his money to plunder ?

i live in Jim's electorate , will send some locals to plunder Jim .
the street with 30 residences suffered 3 break-ins last week , the local shops 4 break-ins the same week .. they are in an adjoining street given all the CCTV cameras in the 2 areas there must be a documentary coming out soon .

i wonder if Jim refers any articular ethnic group for the visits

 

[divs4ever]

Because without a death tax, it can allow large accumulated untaxed wealth to pass along in perpetuity without a tax event ever occurring.

For example, the Elons Musks, Bezos and Zuckerberg etc of the world have large accumulated capital gains that won’t be taxed until they eventually sell their shares and trigger a capital gains tax event.

I have no problem with them accumulating capital gains for the 50 or 60 years of their working careers, but I believe at some stage those large dynasties need to be taxed.

I think when they die, before that fortune gets passed along to the next generation it should trigger some sort of tax event.

but but , weren't the members of that dynasty paying tax along the way ( pay as you go ) , if not WHY not ??

 

[divs4ever]

No doubt but Sid Negus all those years ago got into the Senate on abolish the death tax and from memory was instrumental in its demise. Would any half dead, dim witted pollie want to revist it,???????

of course they would .. providing their family was exempt

 

[Value Collector]

but but , weren't the members of that dynasty paying tax along the way ( pay as you go ) , if not WHY not ??

not always, some of them just borrow against their large capital gain fortunes at low rates rather than pay a wage that would be taxable at 47%, and push a lot of their living expenses into the expense column of private companies, eg cars planes etc etc are “work expenses” not paid from taxable earnings.

But Also, those “a long the way taxes” that they might have paid, are the same taxes we all pay, but we also pay capital gains when we are forced to sell during our lives, where as the dynasties don’t have to sell, so they escape that capital gain for generations some times.

 

[divs4ever]

not always, some of them just borrow against their large capital gain fortunes at low rates rather than pay a wage that would be taxable at 47%.

But Also, those “a long the way taxes” that they might have paid, are the same taxes we all pay, but we also pay capital gains when we are forced to sell during our lives, where as the dynasties don’t have to sell, so they escape that capital gain for generations some times.

they call that 'capitalism' saving/building for the future ( generations )

we could always switch to Communism where everyone does the bare minimum ( but government tax revenue plummets , making kick-backs hard to find )

with no carrot the donkey is liable to make an ass of you

 

[MovingAverage]

Because without a death tax, it can allow large accumulated untaxed wealth to pass along in perpetuity without a tax event ever occurring.

For example, the Elons Musks, Bezos and Zuckerberg etc of the world have large accumulated capital gains that won’t be taxed until they eventually sell their shares and trigger a capital gains tax event.

I have no problem with them accumulating capital gains for the 50 or 60 years of their working careers, but I believe at some stage those large dynasties need to be taxed.

I think when they die, before that fortune gets passed along to the next generation it should trigger some sort of tax event.

But a death tax in Australia will not impact musk, bezos or fuckerberg. I have no issue with large dynasties being taxed, but not on assets they’ve already paid tax on. Careful for what you wish for…it’s easy to intro new tax targeting the super wealthy, but watch how quickly governments will tweak those tax to capture more people.

 

[divs4ever]

remember the Aboriginals had communism and look how much plunder the English invaders rushed home with to their country estates

 

[Sean K]

I used to hate the Idea of a death tax, I am kinda in favour of it now though, not so much for amounts of under say $3 Million, but I think the dynastic wealth should be taxed when it transfers inter generationally.

I think you should be taxed for money earnt once and that's it. I don't even think there should be capital gains tax. It's normally on an investment that you buy with money that's been taxed already. Death tax: work your arse off, run a good business, or whatever, pay taxes all the way through - going into the government's coffers for them to waste, and for your success, give all that's remaining to the government to waste. It doesn't make sense. I really hate any policy that reduces incentive because I think humans are fundamentally selfish. Yes, I'm an anti-pollyanna.

 

[Smurf1976]

we could always switch to Communism where everyone does the bare minimum

My observation is we're not too far from that already.

There's some who still work hard but there's an awful lot with an expectation of easy money these days.

 

[divs4ever]

My observation is we're not too far from that already.

There's some who still work hard but there's an awful lot with an expectation of easy money these days.

well after more than 30 years of watching incompetence being rewarded

is it any wonder i fully embraced a disability pension ( and stopped taking inane phone calls from management after arriving home ) ( or seeking rehabilitation )

i mean if there is a two inch gap in a one inch diameter high tensile steel bar and i have left a note declaring the bar broken , surely a thirty metre walk to the machine would confirm that ( sure you ignored a two week warning that bar was failing , but ring me at home , when i am off the clock , and expect ME to care )

but isolated elite still dream of total Communism

 

[Value Collector]

they call that 'capitalism' saving/building for the future ( generations )

we could always switch to Communism where everyone does the bare minimum ( but government tax revenue plummets , making kick-backs hard to find )

with no carrot the donkey is liable to make an ass of you

No, it’s not about capitalism, capitalism works just fine with taxation, it’s about spreading the tax burden as fairly as possible across all participants.

 

[divs4ever]

No, it’s not about capitalism, capitalism works just fine with taxation, it’s about spreading the tax burden as fairly as possible across all participants.

but we DO pay taxation ... GST , rates , sales tax , petrol tax , tobacco tax , luxury tax , etc etc etc

almost every financial transaction attracts at least one tax

about time we tell they government to spend the revenue wisely or vacate

tip of the hat to the late Kerry Francis Packer

 

[Value Collector]

I think you should be taxed for money earnt once and that's it. I don't even think there should be capital gains tax. It's normally on an investment that you buy with money that's been taxed already. Death tax: work your arse off, run a good business, or whatever, pay taxes all the way through - going into the government's coffers for them to waste, and for your success, give all that's remaining to the government to waste. It doesn't make sense. I really hate any policy that reduces incentive because I think humans are fundamentally selfish. Yes, I'm an anti-pollyanna.

Firstly, to say Tax is wasted is a bit silly, sure there is some waste, but tax funds all sorts of great programs in this country, Eg Health care, Education, Pensions just to name a few.

A death tax wouldn’t reduce incentives to create and earn, Hell I would love to delay my taxation until I die, any tax that kicks in after I die surely won’t stop me earning today.

As I mentioned in the post above, some large fortunes can go decades and generations with paying very little tax.

I don’t see a reason why a small tax of say 10% shouldn’t be levied once a generation on these large inheritances.

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As for weather there should be capital gains, well some earnings are accrued through capital gains, eg when you build a business part of the profit can come in the form of a capital gain, that needs to be taxed some how.

Trust me from a personal selfish perspective I would love to get rid of capital gains tax, but that wouldn’t be fair on the non investors, and the 50% discount is there to offset the parts of the capital gain that aren’t real earnings.

 

[Value Collector]

but we DO pay taxation ... GST , rates , sales tax , petrol tax , tobacco tax , luxury tax , etc etc etc

almost every financial transaction attracts at least one tax

about time we tell they government to spend the revenue wisely or vacate

tip of the hat to the late Kerry Francis Packer

Every one is subjected to those taxes, on top of the income tax they pay on their wages and the capital gains taxes they pay on their modest investment portfolios.

However, Many of the people with large fortunes don’t pay income taxes and capital gains to the same extent as the middle class.

 

[Value Collector]

But a death tax in Australia will not impact musk, bezos or fuckerberg. I have no issue with large dynasties being taxed, but not on assets they’ve already paid tax on. Careful for what you wish for…it’s easy to intro new tax targeting the super wealthy, but watch how quickly governments will tweak those tax to capture more people.

We have plenty of our own dynasties here in Australia.

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There is no double taxation with a death tax, if I build up a fortune of say $50 M during my life and have paid some taxes along the way, if when I die the government clips $5 Million (10%) off it and hands the other $45 M to my nephew, thats not me being taxed twice, That’s my nephew being taxed once on unearned income hitting his balance sheet.

But as I said, earlier even if I had paid some tax along the way, there is a big chance my nephews inheritance would included a lot of untaxed capital gains.

 

[divs4ever]

Every one is subjected to those taxes, on top of the income tax they pay on their wages and the capital gains taxes they pay on their modest investment portfolios.

However, Many of the people with large fortunes don’t pay income taxes and capital gains to the same extent as the middle class.

but where did those fortunes come from ( not counting the ones who acquired through generations of 'public service ')

they EARNED it , aka produced something ( or a service ) that was valuable , they also probably paid several staff on the way up the ladder , helping them up the ladder

MAYBE the problem is the taxation on the middle class ( the bulk of income earned )

after all we introduced a GST to make tax fairer , but did we stop adding extra taxes after that .. no we didn't ,

didn't we cancel existing taxes on introducing the GST .... no we didn't

the taxes increase in number under the disguise of 'making things fairer ' ( again and again and AGAIN )

fool me once shame on you , fool me twice shame on ME

if the super-rich avoid taxes , then MAYBE the way to be super-rich is to avoid taxes , just saying

 

[Sean K]

We have plenty of our own dynasties here in Australia.

—————————

There is no double taxation with a death tax, if I build up a fortune of say $50 M during my life and have paid some taxes along the way, if when I die the government clips $5 Million (10%) off it and hands the other $45 M to my nephew, thats not me being taxed twice, That’s my nephew being taxed once on unearned income hitting his balance sheet.

But as I said, earlier even if I had paid some tax along the way, there is a big chance my nephews inheritance would included a lot of untaxed capital gains.

Ah, I see what you mean here. Perhaps the money is handed down with an applicable CGT being withdrawn as the 'death tax' but then the assets your nephew receives is tax free and can't be later taxed when sold. Can't imagine any complications there.