The beauty in religion

[motorway]

Do any of the knowledgeable people here know the success rate of Mary McKillop?

ie, how many people Mary McK prayed for for the three 'miracles'?

Is it the same as like someone entering the lotto all their life and eventually winning three times? On a redraw 100 years later?

Or, if someone got struck by lightening more than once perhaps?

Or, Collingwood winning a Grand Final?

THE celebration of Mary MacKillop's miracle cancer cures is a worrying example of the lack of scientific literacy in the community, says an expert in evidence-based medicine.

The question is not whether the NSW mother Kathleen Evans recovered from her cancer after praying to MacKillop but how many others prayed and did not go into remission, said Chris Del Mar, a professor of primary care research at Bond University

http://www.smh.com.au/national/mackillop-cancer-prayers-betray-a-false-thinking-20101011-16g2u.html

Motorway

 

[bellenuit]

Even if one were to accept that (religious) miracles do happen, what I find most illogical about attributing the miracle to Mary MacKillop is that it assumes that the person cured ONLY prayed to Mary MacKillop (to intercede with God to grant a cure), but never ever prayed to God directly to grant a cure. Otherwise, why attribute the miracle to Mary MacKillop, when it would have been more likely (if one believed in this sort of thing) that it was God directly answering the person's prayers.

To assume that the person never ever prayed directly to God for a cure is beyond belief.

Though Mary MacKillop was undoubtedly a great woman, IMO it doesn't make sense that God would need persuasion to make a miracle.

 

[motorway]

To assume that the person never ever prayed directly to God for a cure is beyond belief.

Or anyone else ... A remote Acquaintance.. Or a even perfect Stranger.


Motorway

 

[Tink]

Well thats the Beauty in Religion, and Mary MacKillop was a Nun that dedicated her life to God and the people, helping the poor, educating the children, opening schools and centres, which in those times there would have been no help.

Had it not been for Religion, this wouldnt have been, which is the whole picture.

 

[Ruby]

Well thats the Beauty in Religion, and Mary MacKillop was a Nun that dedicated her life to God and the people, helping the poor, educating the children, opening schools and centres, which in those times there would have been no help.

Had it not been for Religion, this wouldnt have been, which is the whole picture.

No, that was the beauty in Mary MacKillop, who was undoubtedly a very good person, but that does not mean she had supernatural powers.

 

[Julia]

Well thats the Beauty in Religion, and Mary MacKillop was a Nun that dedicated her life to God and the people, helping the poor, educating the children, opening schools and centres, which in those times there would have been no help.

Had it not been for Religion, this wouldnt have been, which is the whole picture.

No one is denying she altruistically worked to make a great difference and deserves all credit for that.

But why could she not have done that simply because she was that sort of person, the fact that she was religious being not the prime motivator?

In other words, anyone could have done all the stuff she did who had no belief in God, i.e. helping the poor, opening schools etc etc.

If the Catholic Church wants to call her a saint for this work, it's fine by me.
But the whole miracle thing because sick people prayed to her is where it all falls over imo.

I don't want to deride people who believe in religion and understand many find great comfort and support in believing in a God. You might be right for all I know. I just find it hard to credit that anyone is going to believe a dead nun cured someone's sickness.

 

[Boognish]

If anyone who claims to believe in miracles in general and Mary MacKillop's healing powers in particular is serious about their beliefs, they will have no need for medical care provided by doctors.

If they get cancer, blindness or some other horrible disease they will simply have to pray and wait to be miraculously healed from on high. To do otherwise shows their faith is not genuine. Once healed, they can contact the Vatican and confirm Saint Mary's new status.

Obviously the exception is lost limbs because God works in mysterious ways and doesn't regenerate these. If you lose a finger or a leg, go see a doctor.

 

[Tink]

Yep Ruby, that was the beauty of Mary, but nuns and priests feel a calling to work for God, and had she not done that, those schools and centres would not have been opened to help those people, and those Nuns are still doing the same overseas, opening schools and centres, following on from her work, all under the umbrella of Religion.

Julia, I believe in God but I am not phased if others do or not, I have had my own experiences and thats enough for me : )

 

[explod]

Even if one were to accept that (religious) miracles do happen, what I find most illogical about attributing the miracle to Mary MacKillop is that it assumes that the person cured ONLY prayed to Mary MacKillop (to intercede with God to grant a cure), but never ever prayed to God directly to grant a cure. Otherwise, why attribute the miracle to Mary MacKillop, when it would have been more likely (if one believed in this sort of thing) that it was God directly answering the person's prayers.

To assume that the person never ever prayed directly to God for a cure is beyond belief.

Though Mary MacKillop was undoubtedly a great woman, IMO it doesn't make sense that God would need persuasion to make a miracle.

The belief is that Saints (Canonised) have a greater influence on God himself. She is part of the recognised spiritual lobby group. And in my young days I understood this as standard teaching. God's Mother Mary is particularly prayed to in this vein. As youngters at the end of each nights Rosary session we prayed to Mary for the conversion of Russia. The huge fear of Communism was in every home in those days way down to the little children. And you wonder why some of us are a bit bent now.

And, for example, at our mortal level, the best way for one to get through to the Prime Minister would be to write to or lobby the local member of the ALP. Straight forward really.

 

[bellenuit]

The belief is that Saints (Canonised) have a greater influence on God himself. She is part of the recognised spiritual lobby group.

But she was not canonised when they attributed the miracle to her.

I know where you you are coming from because that is my background too. IMO this has no basis in Christianity but is just a layer of mumbo jumbo added to justify a hierarchical order in the church, with the ignorant people at the bottom and then deacons, priests right up through the church hierarchy to the pope, saints and eventually God.

If I were to be a believer, then I could only see it as some understanding between me and the deity, with all the middlemen a complete irrelevance.

 

[Joules MM1]

2 tons of pigeon droppings in Swedish church tower
Nov. 22 11:21 AM EST

STOCKHOLM (AP) ”” A hatch on a Swedish church tower inadvertently left open for some three decades resulted in 2 tons of pigeon droppings amassing in the tower.

The church's property manager says the layer of droppings was 30 centimeters (12 inches) deep when it was discovered during a May inspection of the Heliga Trefaldighets Kyrka in Gavle, 170 kilometers (105 miles) north of Stockholm.

Lennart Helzenius said on Thursday that church staff had been shocked by the sheer number of bags of excrement cleaners were removing from the tower. He says the droppings filled 80 bags in the first round of cleaning, and then just as many in the second round.

Helzenius says the hatch had probably been left open since the 1980s.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/2-to.../austrias-ice-cream-killer-gets-life-sentence

Church of England compromise sees introduction of women Father Christmasses
Posted: Nov 23rd, 2012 by roybland

After the vote to allow women bishops was narrowly defeated, the Church of England has agreed a compromise deal which will see the introduction of women Father Christmasses instead.

A majority of church members support the measure, arguing that women have more experience than men of dressing up in outlandish costumes.

But traditionalists say they have doubts over whether women Father Christmases will pass the Ho!Ho!Ho! test.

‘While children have traditionally accepted a bearded fat old man in a red and white costume,’ said one conservative churchgoer, ‘the addition of Christmassy t1ts may be a step too far.’

 

[McLovin]

2 tons of pigeon droppings in Swedish church tower
Nov. 22 11:21 AM EST

I bet the Catholic church are praying that all their troubles have GUANO-way.

 

[Joules MM1]

I bet the Catholic church are praying that all their troubles have GUANO-way.

Go West wrote King of wishful thinking
Dire Straights wrote Sultans of Swing
McLovin wrote .......puns

and you beak so eloquently, words well nestled, flocked together.....

 

[jancha]

Even if one were to accept that (religious) miracles do happen, what I find most illogical about attributing the miracle to Mary MacKillop is that it assumes that the person cured ONLY prayed to Mary MacKillop (to intercede with God to grant a cure), but never ever prayed to God directly to grant a cure. Otherwise, why attribute the miracle to Mary MacKillop, when it would have been more likely (if one believed in this sort of thing) that it was God directly answering the person's prayers.

To assume that the person never ever prayed directly to God for a cure is beyond belief.

Though Mary MacKillop was undoubtedly a great woman, IMO it doesn't make sense that God would need persuasion to make a miracle.

Maybe Mary MacKillop was the medium to God. You know...sift out the good from the bad before it went upstairs for approval.
I actually have a piece of wood from the tree that stood out front of Mary MacKillop house in Yankalilla SA. Funny things happened in that town. Apparitions appeared on the local church wall. People would come from all over the world to pray and take home the holy water from the well out back. Bishop and followers parading down the main road.
Certainly didn't do my business any harm.
If it helps sick people get better whats the harm? Ye who has faith

 

[pixel]

Maybe Mary MacKillop was the medium to God. You know...sift out the good from the bad before it went upstairs for approval.
I actually have a piece of wood from the tree that stood out front of Mary MacKillop house in Yankalilla SA. Funny things happened in that town. Apparitions appeared on the local church wall. People would come from all over the world to pray and take home the holy water from the well out back. Bishop and followers parading down the main road.
Certainly didn't do my business any harm.
If it helps sick people get better whats the harm? Ye who has faith

of course - why has nobody else thought of that:
An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god does need an army of helpers, mediums, secretaries. Doesn't every tycoon, minister, general manager of a multinational corporation need such an army of flappers? The bigger the boss, the larger the support crew.
Just proves the point that every tribe of humans create their god in their own image, outfitting him/her with attributes they're familiar with. And the more people relate to that image and "buy" it, the better for the merchants.

"nummus non olet." :

 

[Tink]

With Christmas around the corner, the beauty in religion is shown around the globe, Carols by candlelight sang around the country, nativity scenes in their alcoves, so beautiful to see.
St Francis of Assisi is one of my favourite saints, he loved animals, and I often go to the St Francis Church in Melbourne.

I love this time of year, families and friends gathering together enjoying its true meaning -- love one another as I have loved you -- peace, love and blessings.
Making that time for people that are alone.
God taught us to treat people as we want to be treated, help one another, and through religion and Church, Gods meaning moves on through our children and all future generations, and through our community.

Merry Christmas.

 

[explod]

of course - why has nobody else thought of that:
An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god does need an army of helpers, mediums, secretaries. Doesn't every tycoon, minister, general manager of a multinational corporation need such an army of flappers? The bigger the boss, the larger the support crew.
Just proves the point that every tribe of humans create their god in their own image, outfitting him/her with attributes they're familiar with. And the more people relate to that image and "buy" it, the better for the merchants.

"nummus non olet." :

Spot on, the Great Roman Emperor, Constantine set up the Muslims and Christians as he saw them good for holding his Empire together.

Nothing has changed and the gullible still recite the fairy tales of Santa and the Lad from Bethlehem to fill the pockets of business.

Frazier's "Golden Bough" is a good read for those seeking a bit of truth about the whole charade. Then maybe you could move onto Dawkins.

 

[Miss Hale]

With Christmas around the corner, the beauty in religion is shown around the globe, Carols by candlelight sang around the country, nativity scenes in their alcoves, so beautiful to see.
St Francis of Assisi is one of my favourite saints, he loved animals, and I often go to the St Francis Church in Melbourne.

I love this time of year, families and friends gathering together enjoying its true meaning -- love one another as I have loved you -- peace, love and blessings.
Making that time for people that are alone.
God taught us to treat people as we want to be treated, help one another, and through religion and Church, Gods meaning moves on through our children and all future generations, and through our community.

Merry Christmas.

Thanks Tink, Merry Christmas to you too

 

[Tink]

When a whole country experiences a revival of religion there is a great improvement in the society of that land. The virtues encouraged by religion are of great benefit to the whole of civilisation.

"That the tendency of virtue to promote the order of society, when we consider it coolly and philosophically, reflects a very great beauty upon it, cannot be called into question. Human society, when we contemplate it in a certain abstract and philosophical light, appears like a great, an immense machine, whose regular and harmonious movements produce a thousand agreeable effects. As in any other beautiful and noble machine that was the production of human art, whatever tended to render its movements more smooth and easy, would derive a beauty from this effect, and, on the contrary, whatever tended to obstruct them would displease upon that account: so virtue, which is, as it were, the fine polish to the wheels of society, necessarily pleases; while vice, like the vile rust, which makes them jar and grate upon one another, is as necessarily offensive." (Adam Smith)

A life of religious virtue is not a wretched existence of unhappiness, rather it is the means by which we, and all of those around us, may grow and prosper in love and peace.

Very true

 

[tech/a]

Humans need direction/order/compassion and authority.
Many societies/communities exist without religion.
But none that I know of without direction/order/compassion and Authority.

It is even true of the smallest communities--- schools/workplaces/sports teams/families/partnerships and or relationships.