Suicide and Voluntary Euthanasia

[noirua]

Dink,

Great post. Thank you.

However, not all situations work out as easily as you suggest. My late grandmother had a very healthy cardiovascular system, no cancer or other disease, but was completely incapacitated by a form of arthritis which meant she was in pain all the time, couldn't wash or feed herself, or get to the toilet.

Her doctor told her she could live for many more years like this. What pleasure did she have in life? All our reassurances that she wasn't a burden were completely irrelevant. She was in her late 80's and simply had had enough. What would you suggest as a solution for her?

NB She eventually managed to crawl outside to where a discarded old laundry tub had filled with rainwater and drowned herself. I found her some hours later with the flies crawling all over her.

Julia

We have a member of our family who is in a similar situation and all the comments about pain killers are really unhelpful as the different forms of arthritas incapicate people in different ways.
Also, pain killers have different side affects, the very best can affect heart rythm and have been withdrawn. Others attack the walls of the stomach and further tablets need to be taken to stop this happening. These extra tablets cause severe constipation and various medicines need to be taken to balance the problems.

 

[Julia]

Dink,

With respect, I do feel that you are saying all the standard lines. I suppose you feel you have to.

But this standard stuff - treat the depression, give adequate pain relief etc. -somehow doesn't cut it when you have someone you love begging you to help her end her life, and having to explain that providing such assistance would mean going to jail.

I agree that anti depresssant medication can be really useful in many situations but where any depression is a rational response to a real situation, as opposed to what used to be called an endogenous depression, I personally feel it's the wrong thing. Giving my grandmother antidepressants would not have changed how she felt about her situation and frankly would have been insulting to her.

My basic point is one I have already made and that is, what point is there in forcing someone old who wants to die to continue a sad existence. Nothing to do with pain. Nothing to do with disease. They have just had enough. They have made their contribution and done that with love. They now want to be allowed to go.

I expect you will respond with the theme that "we can't just help people to die because they have "had enough"," and I can see that difficulty also.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but don't feel that old, ill people committing suicide by violent means is what should be happening.

Julia

 

[Julia]

I meant to also say that I feel you, Dink, are being unfair when you label Philip Nitsche and his organisation as sensationalist. (That may not have been the word you used, but that was the idea.)

I have met him and found him a very realistic, compassionate person.

Julia

 

[Dink]

I think what we do agree on is that it is a very complex topic. I believe our aims are both admirable and all options have their positives and negatives. I think society is served best by euthanasia not being legalised. There will always individual exceptions and there are plenty of doctors willing to put their careers on the line to deal with these (they just don't broadcast it to the world). Even the legal system realises this and no doctor would be found guilty (or even charged) if considered to be acting humanely and in the best interests of their patient. Every case has to be managed on an individual basis. People should not have to take their own lives and it as distressing to me as anyone when it does occur. Please do not think that doctors are the enemy and comments like one made previously in reference to negligent doctors and Bundaberg do not need to be made in this thread. Please realise we do have a excellent health system by world standards.

On the topic of Phillip Nitschke I have no doubts that he is a compassionate person. I just think he alienates himself from the rest of the medical fraternity and is too polarising. I think he is limiting progress in this area rather than improving it. Change will occur with time as our society becomes more secular. While his methods of advocacy are admired by his supporters please realise what the perception of those who are not informed and are undecided must be. His methods just make those who are against euthanasia more resolute. This is largely related to how he is portrayed in the media which is unfortunate.

Dink

 

[Happy]

There will always individual exceptions and there are plenty of doctors willing to put their careers on the line to deal with these (they just don't broadcast it to the world). Even the legal system realises this and no doctor would be found guilty (or even charged) if considered to be acting humanely and in the best interests of their patient. Every case has to be managed on an individual basis. Dink

I don’t think the doctor should have to make such decisions.

Doctor’s hands should be free to do what is best for patient and not risk to be first to be prosecuted, for doing so.
What about time consumed to go to court, to answer all the questions, and possible loss of income and some social implications?

What if he-she has family and doesn’t take the non-standard decision and deep down knows that the better option was not taken and the patient suffered just because of that decision?

What about practical issue?
Global population is ageing and we might run out of money, of carers, or both?

 

[Dink]

The decision will be as difficult if not moreso if it is legalised. In the current situation doctors do not end up in court except in very rare cases.

On the topic of the burden of our ageing population I think that this makes us more aware of euthanasia but should not be used as a argument in favour of euthanasia. Cost and the need for carers will increase undoubtedly. However, in our increasing selfish society I think sacrifices on an individual, community and national level can be made elsewhere before relying on euthanasia to solve our problems. I can theoretically see a time when it could get so desperate but I cannot see it happening in the near future.

I apologise but unfortunately I have to finish my contributions to this thread. Unfortunately work is too busy. I don't think I can add much more and believe I have given a fairly good account of my views. I hope I have raised some different ideas that you may not have considered. It is a very difficult issue and forums like this are fantastic for discussing different viewpoints. I have certainly enjoyed reading your ideas and own personal accounts and have taken them on board. I think it is fantastic that you are all taking an interest. Please attempt to fill an Advanced Health Directive (Living Will) with your GP in the near future. Talk to your family and friends and discuss end of life issues. Make sure you know what their wishes are and make sure they know yours.

Take care,
Dink

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgf2FeEe0sI = if you've been to jail for justice (Peter Paul and Mary - grandparents lol)

 

[2020hindsight]

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2106
I've posted a poem #205 on the above thread.

 

[constable]

Hi Happy

I am pro-life and so for me personally, trying to come up with solutions to guarantee friends, relatives etc would not abuse the system for their own personal and/or financial gains dosen't come into it.

I haven't seen any proposed solutions anywhere at all that would guarantee, what I accept would be a minority of cases, some people not getting away with essentially 'legalised' murder for their own personal gains.......and I doubt very much that anyone will ever come up any solutions if euthanasia was ever legalised here.

cheers

bullmarket

This is the crux of the problem , the subject becomes unable to make the decision and relies on the subjective nature of another human being.
Like everyone else i've been touched by cancer. My adoptive father died of bone cancer. Took him a little over 16 months to go. The last 2 months were unbearable the cancer literally ate him alive. A man who once stood over 6 foot weighing 18 stone was reduced to a skeleton, a frail invalid who's pride dissapated with every breath. He left us a week before he actually passed away, mum wouldn't let us see him because he was mentally incoherent. At this stage, looking back there is no way i was capable of making any informed decision on anything, let alone the future of someone's life. And would i begrudge anyone else who made that decision instead? Of course i would ! That's the weakness of human nature. How would any one feel if they discovered a cure for his condition 2 weeks later ? I know our family hung off every drug that the Peter Mac institute threw at dad. Because that is all you have.... hope for a miracle against all odds.
How does anyone know when its the right time for someone to go? I couldn't make that decision........... not for dad.......................

 

[2020hindsight]

On the contrary, if there is slander and defamation on ASF I want to know about it as slander and defamation are both forbidden here. I am unable to review all posts on ASF personally so I must have missed the posts to which you are referring. You may send the links to me via PM if you wish.

The above is a reply to Bullmarket from Joe Blow... way way back.

mmmmm - suddenly we get quotes referring back to Bullmarket?
what's the story Constable?? (and Coyotte) - are you a stooge of some sort??

Why quote Bullmarket?? Why not simply post your opinion!!! Bullmarket was banned was he not ? wierd lol.

Bullmarket isnt even a current member !!!
Most of his posts presumably deleted. Yet Constable and Coyotte continue to quote him ??

Next he'll be telling us (again) what cowards we are lol - ahh that's right - and somthing about IQ's no better than shoe size.

Here's one way back at #99 (I believe its the most recent, except another at #102 with Joe) - sheesh - imagine jumping past Dink and Julias recent contrivbutions, and quoting bullmarket ?? ( in fact more like #70)

Hi Joe You're now sticking your nose in something that doesn't concern you at all because I don't hold you personally responsible for any of the posts. cheers bullmarket

 

[2020hindsight]

Next he'll be telling us (again) what cowards we are lol - ahh that's right - and somthing about IQ's no better than shoe size.

now, THIS one I might agree with

if brainy people look geeky/ugly then I'm drop dead gorgeous :

 

[constable]

The above is a reply to Bullmarket from Joe Blow... way way back.

mmmmm - suddenly we get quotes referring back to Bullmarket?
what's the story Constable?? (and Coyotte) - are you a stooge of some sort??

Why quote Bullmarket?? Why not simply post your opinion!!! Bullmarket was banned was he not ? wierd lol.

Bullmarket isnt even a current member !!!
Most of his posts presumably deleted. Yet Constable and Coyotte continue to quote him ??

Next he'll be telling us (again) what cowards we are lol - ahh that's right - and somthing about IQ's no better than shoe size.

Here's one way back at #99 (I believe its the most recent, except another at #102 with Joe) - sheesh - imagine jumping past Dink and Julias recent contrivbutions, and quoting bullmarket ?? ( in fact more like #70)

Dear 2020hindsight,
1 - im not aware bullmarket is banned from the forum.
2 - nor could i give an excrement
3 - the beauty of this forum is that i can agree with parts of what people say and not have to deal with the whole picture of who they are!
4 - i wanted to say your last post sucked but that wouldnt be dealing with the whole picture of who you are, which is what u want me to apply to bullmarket!
5 - you missed the whole point of my post for your petty differences with bullmarket. Your point may have made, but it is twice as quickly lost.

 

[2020hindsight]

Dear 2020hindsight,
1 - im not aware bullmarket is banned from the forum.
2 - nor could i give an excrement
3 - the beauty of this forum is that i can agree with parts of what people say and not have to deal with the whole picture of who they are!
4 - i wanted to say your last post sucked but that wouldnt be dealing with the whole picture of who you are, which is what u want me to apply to bullmarket!

Constable - ok - you arent Bullmarket - but gee you've got a great memory - post #20
Personally I think that is pretty much superseded my events yes?

 

[constable]

Constable - ok - you arent Bullmarket - but gee you've got a great memory - post #20
Personally I think that is pretty much superseded my events yes?

Yeah look i just started reading the first page of the thread and his post i happened to agree with. i couldnt careless who posted it! But none the less found it relevant to what i'd been thru.

 

[2020hindsight]

Yeah look i just started reading the first page of the thread and his post i happened to agree with. i couldnt careless who posted it! But none the less found it relevant to what i'd been thru.

ok - apologies for any insult. - I just found Dinks recent stuff far more interesting. - not that I agreed with it. I find Dr N far more compassionate that the bureaucratic line.

btw, I have each thread sorted with most recent first - hence I would never read anything but the most recent (and the old ones are way at the back).
Not worth getting black eyes over

 

[constable]

ok - apologies for any insult. - I just found Dinks recent stuff far more interesting. - not that I agreed with it. I find Dr N far more compassionate that the bureaucratic line.

btw, I have each thread sorted with most recent first - hence I would never read anything but the most recent (and the old ones are way at the back).
Not worth getting black eyes over

thats ok man.

 

[2020hindsight]

Constable - I'll throw in a story about my father-in-law. He was fine just fine - at home, good GP, kept him on tablets to prevent high blood pressure - diabetic.

Anyway, he went to hospital for - of all things - prostate. He would have been much better ignoring the problem!.

Firstly, the hospital took him off the blood pressure tablets (So that wounds would heal) - I was present visiting him one night when the nurse took his blood pressure and turned white. She ran away to tell a doctor, who didnt do anything. That night he had a massive stroke - unconscious for days. Paralysed in one arm and would never complete a sentence again in his life.
(his GP was FURIOUS - IDIOTS he said - I keep his pressure under control for 20 years, and they get him for a few days and screw it up"). Whilst there we saw people with "nil by mouth" above the beds being force fed - sheesh - ABSOLUTE incompetence - CRIMINAL negligence imho.

Couple of days later, he's partly conscious, but very distressed, we were told he was dying. My wife found the specialist about to leave in the carpark (he'd missed dropping in to see us at the bedside) - "excuse me doctor, but I'd like to discuss my father". He said "my name is Mister! not doctor!" (seems that when doctors become specialists they get promoted to "Mister" )ok ok - we finally went to see the patient - I said "what a coincidence, they take the catheter out this morning, and tonight he's so distressed". Sure enough, when they checked, he had a bladder like a balloon. Catheter fixed that. He lived. (red faces on the people that had just finished telling us the reason he was distressed was that he was dying). He came home.

Then over the next few years, he had circulatory problems, had one leg off , then the other. Don't forget he has a paralysed arm , - and cannot get past the first word in any sentence he attempts.

Legs by the way were cut off as high as possible. So he resembled a humpty dumpty, with one arm in a sling - who couldn't talk or really communicate other than with nods etc.

He lived like that for ten years. read a lot of books. saw his grandkids born - tried to smile through it all (brave buga) - and finally died in hospital. His wife attended him 24/7, although getting him between bed and wheelchair and vice versa was a real problem. (he was a big framed- man)

1. I'm not necessarily saying he qualified for mercy killing, although he would have probably opted for it if he could.
2. But I start to understand where Dr Nitschke is coming from. I'm sure that there are other worse cases where the case for "a mercival release" would be overwhelming. 2020

Incidentally , I have contaced EXIT to learn more. - we could all do that I'm sure. This debate will rage into the next decade as we all get older no doubt. My wife and I have both promised each other than we wouldn't want to become a burden.

Another story - I knew a great man who got cancer - ran into a tree at 150kph with a stack of petrol in the car. Yet he had always warned me about VW beetles for that very reason (front end petrol tanks). No question in my mind that he made an early exit. Poor ambulance drivers - surely a sophisticated modern drug would be better!! - BUT as Phillip Nitschke says "the govt hypocritically bans these", so he is forced to come up with the best of a bad set of clumsy alternatives, carbon monoxide etc.

And btw, Dinks posts were informative no question - BUT I still dont agree lol.

PS getting back to my father in law , - the hospital ruined his life - and almost carried out the mercy killing themselves by removing the catheter when he had a stroke and was already EXTREMEMLY distressed (and FORGETTING that they'd removed it!!)
- hence I find Dinks " everythings just fine...- doctors never make mistakes etc" attitude a bit hard to take. "Doctors bury their mistakes"!, - never a truer statement ! and we rarely get to the facts believe me.

 

[constable]

Yeah look sorry to hear that.
You just cant win on this issue with so many different variables of suffering and death. Who could possibly legislate on the issue and have the definitive answer? F *ck ed if i know and im tipping it will stay this way for some time yet!
Can i just add that ive found doctors to be like mechanics..... if your not happy get a second opinion!

 

[Julia]

2020

That's just a dreadful story about your father in law, and yet another example of how our hospitals stuff up the simplest things. I'm so sorry to hear of all he (and you as the family) went through. I honestly can't begin to imagine how any human being can remain remotely sane in the condition that man was.

As I've said so often before, I just cannot see the point of people continuing to suffer like this. No one yet has ever explained to me the positives of continued suffering, other than those who have religious convictions.

I don't think Dink meant to sound as "programmed" as he did. I guess doctors, like most professions, have their set speeches for most situations and sometimes get so used to parroting off the same lines that they forget real suffering human beings are what they are actually talking about.

Julia

 

[2020hindsight]

Julia, no probs, - a while ago now, and apart from the fact that none of us trust a hospital as far as we can kick one, it's all in the past.

"we've gotten over it" !! We have to do that from time to time, don't we?

I played this song for a bloke at work the other day - ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmwYpC-s40w&mode=related&search=
"don't laugh at me, dont call me names , dont get your pleasure from my pain" - (I realy like those words) .
"and I know how it is to cry myself to sleep etc , Im a cripple on the corner etcetc. "

and guess what he says? , - ruthless buga - " sheesh I'd just tell em to get over it !!" lol

anyways thanks for your post. I'm sure we all have similar stories - and I'd also pass on my sympathy for you and your grandmother. She mustve had courage and all regards, 2020

PS (And Constable too - gee I picked the wrong bloke for a fight there lol - apologies man)