Storm Financial Group

[suranyami]

Re: Practical advice

Hi. I've been lurking on this forum for the last few days, after finding out about Storm undergoing administration. I've read just about every post on this thread, and have to say it's been an eye-opener.

I was recommended Storm by someone who is now deeply in the thick of being stormified. I personally only have a very small margin loan ($8K or so), so am not in any trouble. But I'm very worried for the person that recommended me.

I agree that what's needed now is practical advice about what to do. My concern is that the so-called 'unsophisticated' investors that have received margin calls and what-not have a first reaction of "oh, hell, how quickly can we sell the family home".

Now, call me naive, but after reading this forum, hearing about the story that has been told from Storm's point of view, the banks, the investors etc... it appears that there are some serious questions about negligent advice and unprofessional behaviour: mostly on Storm's part, but I don't think the banks and lenders can be seen as innocent either. This spells only one thing: litigation.

Now, I agree with some of the posts above, that litigation, administrators, liquidating companies, lawyers and all the rest probably spell "don't hope to see much in return", but let's look at things from another angle: why the hell would anyone go out and sell their family home when the entire setup is going to be called into legal question?

I for one would be going after:

1. Storm's professional indemnity insurance claims... I'm a measly IT subcontractor, and I'm insured for $20million PER CLAIM for professional indemnity: my clients demand it. It costs me $3K per year. Surely a Financial Adviser would have significantly more than this?

I would be claiming that the investors had been completely misinformed as to the true nature of the risk involved.

e.g. "they had a team of PhDs (Storm boast this!) that said that the downside risk was dealt with"... this COULD have been the case! If they'd done put-options on their indexes, their risk would have been hedged... this never happened).

Also, I would be seriously highlighting any efforts by investors that tried to bailout when things looked bad and were blocked/stymied by Storm's advice AND the obstacle presented by the relationship between Storm and the margin-lenders which prevented them from cashing out when they could.


2. CBA/Colonial Margin Lending/other lenders: for failing a duty of care for allowing retirees to be so highly leveraged and failing to do anything about it.


3. Criminal/common law pursuit of Cassimatis and all of the advisers that worked for them. These people gave advice that led you all to financial ruin, when anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the state of the world's financial markets over the last year could have told you to reduce your exposure. Go after all of them "joint and severally". As someone mentioned early on in this thread... try to do it through common law, not statute law, thus avoiding them hiding behind corporate structures. If that doesn't work, just go after them any way you can.

4. Contact FICS, the FPA, financial ombudsmen, ASIC, etc... use any and all ways of making financial complaints, objections, claims, lawsuits, otherwise. (I've never dealt with any of these organisations personally, either, but you have to try everything!)

I'm not an expert on these things, by a long shot, but I feel like I personally have just dodged a bullet (I almost signed up for a whole "stormified" thing: timing was not quite right, so it didn't happen), and I have loved-ones fully facing the brunt of things, so I can't just sit idly by... Get involved in the class-action suit now! Sue all of them yourselves if you can! Complain! Object! Join forces! But, for god's sake, don't lie down and let them take your life and livelihood away! They're banks, for chrissake! No-one likes them, even the people that work for them. (Yes, I've worked for banks).

So, here's my question to the forum: If I was faced with selling all my assets and being destitute after being stormified, or stalling until after there had been lengthy court-cases, class-actions suits and professional indemnity insurance claims and basically telling the margin-lenders to lump it, I know which option I'd take... what do you think would be the ramifications of this approach?

Given that the banks are going to demand their pound of flesh, surely it makes sense for the investors to do the same?

 

[daisy]

Suranyami
of course you are right about selling the family home. My assumption was that there were people stuck with margin loans they were unable to repay which are accruing interest all the time. My other assumption was that all of these court procedures, legal actions , indemnities etc are going to take years before they are resolved.
I really don't know enough about this to offer advice to anyone.
Sorry folks.

 

[awg]

Does anyone know if Cassimitis was a born-again Christian type, or used some other cultish ideas to lure his customers?

 

[chops_a_must]

The smart state, hey?

 

[Julia]

The pet dog may be the first thing to go.

How much does a german shepard cost to run per week?

Well, if the pet dog was the first thing to go, then they had meagre affection for the animal in the first place, so would be unlikely to nurture any guilt about a trip to the pound.

How much does a German Shepherd cost to run per week? Not much at all.
My dog, which is very well looked after, would cost less than $15 p.w.
I would rather spend $15 p.w. less on myself than lose her, not that the situation would ever arise.

 

[Julia]

Re: Practical advice

I agree that what's needed now is practical advice about what to do. My concern is that the so-called 'unsophisticated' investors that have received margin calls and what-not have a first reaction of "oh, hell, how quickly can we sell the family home".

Yes, and as Daisy has pointed the impetus to do this will be great if payments on the loan are due. If that's the case, how long would it be practical/possible to hold out without making repayments? (I've never had a margin loan so I honestly don't know what would happen here.)

Now, call me naive, but after reading this forum, hearing about the story that has been told from Storm's point of view, the banks, the investors etc... it appears that there are some serious questions about negligent advice and unprofessional behaviour: mostly on Storm's part, but I don't think the banks and lenders can be seen as innocent either. This spells only one thing: litigation.

It certainly sounds like it. However, if Storm exaggerated the value of the homes against which the loans were raised,(and this has been alleged on the thread) then the banks may have less of a case to answer than appears at present. I guess we just don't know about this.

Now, I agree with some of the posts above, that litigation, administrators, liquidating companies, lawyers and all the rest probably spell "don't hope to see much in return", but let's look at things from another angle: why the hell would anyone go out and sell their family home when the entire setup is going to be called into legal question?

Perhaps as above, re the repayments? Again, I don't know the usual practice on this.

I for one would be going after:

1. Storm's professional indemnity insurance claims... I'm a measly IT subcontractor, and I'm insured for $20million PER CLAIM for professional indemnity: my clients demand it. It costs me $3K per year. Surely a Financial Adviser would have significantly more than this?

Thank you for bringing this up. It's another question I've asked previously and no one has answered.
Would it be likely that the professional indemnity insurance would have a clause rejecting payout if negligence is proven? Insurance companies aren't exactly easy-going, and if this were not the case wouldn't the door be left open for any FP to be reckless about giving advice because they knew the insurance would cover any subsequent mess?
Again, I don't know and would appreciate Sir O or another FP advising about this.

I would be claiming that the investors had been completely misinformed as to the true nature of the risk involved.

You'd think this would be logical, but wouldn't the Storm principals have made their first priority ensuring there was some fine print declaring the client had understood all the risk before signing.
Again, I've asked what risk profile, investment strategy, leverage explanation etc was provided prior to the clients signing up, and no one has responded!

e.g. "they had a team of PhDs (Storm boast this!) that said that the downside risk was dealt with"... this COULD have been the case! If they'd done put-options on their indexes, their risk would have been hedged... this never happened).

Also, I would be seriously highlighting any efforts by investors that tried to bailout when things looked bad and were blocked/stymied by Storm's advice AND the obstacle presented by the relationship between Storm and the margin-lenders which prevented them from cashing out when they could.

For this to work, wouldn't the investors have to have documented all these attempts at the time, i.e. their approach and the response received?
And isn't the lawyer acting for Storm going to say "well, why did you not write a clear letter of instruction to Storm demanding that your investment be liquidated by such and such a date." If an investor has such documentation, then yes, they would certainly seem to have a good case.
But if all they can offer is that they said to Storm they were worried about the market going down but that Storm talked them out of cashing out, I doubt that will carry much weight.

2. CBA/Colonial Margin Lending/other lenders: for failing a duty of care for allowing retirees to be so highly leveraged and failing to do anything about it.

Sure. Unless, as above, value of property and possibly annual income level was considerably inflated. There are plenty of very wealthy retirees who can well afford to service a loan, so the banks are not going to ipso facto deny lending to someone who happens not to be working.

3. Criminal/common law pursuit of Cassimatis and all of the advisers that worked for them. These people gave advice that led you all to financial ruin, when anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the state of the world's financial markets over the last year could have told you to reduce your exposure. Go after all of them "joint and severally". As someone mentioned early on in this thread... try to do it through common law, not statute law, thus avoiding them hiding behind corporate structures. If that doesn't work, just go after them any way you can.

Certainly get legal advice about all of this.
Again, I've asked if investors have had legal advice. Haven't seen a response though perhaps I've missed it.

4. Contact FICS, the FPA, financial ombudsmen, ASIC, etc... use any and all ways of making financial complaints, objections, claims, lawsuits, otherwise. (I've never dealt with any of these organisations personally, either, but you have to try everything!)

I'm not an expert on these things, by a long shot, but I feel like I personally have just dodged a bullet (I almost signed up for a whole "stormified" thing: timing was not quite right, so it didn't happen), and I have loved-ones fully facing the brunt of things, so I can't just sit idly by... Get involved in the class-action suit now! Sue all of them yourselves if you can! Complain! Object! Join forces! But, for god's sake, don't lie down and let them take your life and livelihood away! They're banks, for chrissake! No-one likes them, even the people that work for them. (Yes, I've worked for banks).

So, here's my question to the forum: If I was faced with selling all my assets and being destitute after being stormified, or stalling until after there had been lengthy court-cases, class-actions suits and professional indemnity insurance claims and basically telling the margin-lenders to lump it, I know which option I'd take... what do you think would be the ramifications of this approach?

Given that the banks are going to demand their pound of flesh, surely it makes sense for the investors to do the same?

Surinyami, you've made some great suggestions. Please don't interpret my responses as being negative towards you. On the contrary, I'm so pleased someone has made some really practical points. I've just taken the 'devil's advocate' counterbalance in my remarks because sure as hell, neither Storm nor the banks are going to play a soft ball in this miserable affair.

 

[Julia]

There is also reverse mortgages for retirees. So provided you can hang on to a property you can get the pension and release a bit of equity on your house. Reverse mortgages aren’t paid back unless the property is sold or becomes part of a deceased estate. I’m under the impression if you do release some equity on your house under one of these plans the money doesn’t count towards pension means testing.
That’s all I’ve got. Sorry,

Daisy, I'd thought about reverse mortgages too, but rejected it on the assumption if someone already has a loan against their home (which seems to be the problem, or part of it, here) then it would probably be unlikely to be eligible for a reverse mortgage. These are very conservative and, the last I heard, were available for no more than 30% of the value of the property.

 

[daisy]

Julia,
Every case will be different. Up here you can buy a unit for under 300k. Not palatial but a roof not rented. So if you had a house worth say 500k maybe you could sell down and buy outright a place for 300k and with a reverse mortgage and any equity (if there was any) added from the sale to the reverse mortgage could help either get out of bank debt or make a little supplement to social security. That's what I was thinking.

 

[Owenzy]

Well interesting reading from an ex Townsville, ex FIFO mine worker, ex Townsville property owner, ex storm client, ex Gregory st latte sipper
I think the whole situation was fuel by the fast growing economy of Townsville and regional Australia. There was a lot of keeping up with the Jones going on while I lived in Townsville. While the regions are best know for a easy going life style and unsophisticated approach to life there was a forced change by few business people who where out to play on this to try and make financially uneducated people feel like they needed to live a more sophisticated lifestyle and in a hurry. The ever growing expenses of property and living in Townsville and regional Aus where fueling people’s anxiety and greed to keep up or even get a head financially. The property sector in Townsville (and most of Australia) will be next to see reduced values, not to the extent of 40% share market reductions but a reduction. Time will tell, but when Riverside gardens has a for sale sign on every 3rd house if not already, then the figures of only 300-600 (depending on which paper you read) effected clients will paint an obvious picture of the damage to the region in the coming months.

Just some thoughts no malice intended to anyone.

 

[daisy]

I can see the flaw in that plan now. It will depend how much is owed, what other assets can be liquidated to contribute towards that debt and whether your bank will play along with the scheme or grab the money between the sale of the more expensive property and the cheaper one that you plan to reverse mortgage. It still may be an option for some people. It will just depend on how their balance sheet pans out and what policy their bank will adopt towards this.

Word up here in Townsville is that there are hundreds of properties hitting or about to hit the market because of people getting caught up in this.

 

[Julia]

Julia,
Every case will be different. Up here you can buy a unit for under 300k. Not palatial but a roof not rented. So if you had a house worth say 500k maybe you could sell down and buy outright a place for 300k and with a reverse mortgage and any equity (if there was any) added from the sale to the reverse mortgage could help either get out of bank debt or make a little supplement to social security. That's what I was thinking.

Well, yes Daisy, if these were the level of the figures involved.
I was more going by your own earlier example as follows:

We live in Townsville, Cassimatis advertised on T.V. and we ended up at his seminars. I learnt a lot from those seminars but when Cassimatis told us we needed to take out a 450K margin loan (at the time our house was worth 130K) we baulked .

There wouldn't have been much equity to release would there?

 

[Solly]

Does anyone know if Cassimitis was a born-again Christian type, or used some other cultish ideas to lure his customers?

I have met some former clients, they still feel that the Cassimitis's were unfairly treated by the Comm Bank, they are angry, upset and in debt up to their necks.

They still think Storm had the answers for them,......riches and money. All without effort. Just let the market do the work and somebody else will make you rich. You just live off the efforts of others with out any input or elbow grease from yourself

Maybe with the use of fiat money, the principles of fractional reserve banking, the magic of double entry booking and a sprinkling of fairy dust....this sure fire way to riches could just work again.....:bonk:

 

[Macquack]

They still think Storm had the answers for them,......riches and money. All without effort. Just let the market do the work and somebody else will make you rich. You just live off the efforts of others with out any input or elbow grease from yourself

Maybe with the use of fiat money, the principles of fractional reserve banking, the magic of double entry booking and a sprinkling of fairy dust....this sure fire way to riches could just work again.....:bonk:

I was thinking the same thing.

In the US, the "fairy dust" has already been supplied courtesy of the "Bailout Bill" and all the other ingredients for creating another financial crisis are already in place.

It makes "working for a living" look like a mug's game.

 

[daisy]

Well, yes Daisy, if these were the level of the figures involved.
I was more going by your own earlier example as follows:


There wouldn't have been much equity to release would there?

That's true. But that valuation was in 2000-2001. Our home is now valued at 450k. admittedly we've done a bit of work.. but property values soared here during the last boom...(plus for us personally, we bought inner city which was undesirable when we bought but now that's changed.)

On consideration, The problem won't only be how to handle any of the margin loan that can't be repaid. I think they can go on forever provided you can service the interest on the portion you are using??? We need some input here from someone who knows about these.

The problem will be the equity loan that people took out to get the margin loan to begin with. My understanding is that as property valuations boomed up here, some people increased their equity loan to get more money into the scheme. If that setup capitalised the interest then that debt is growing every month. Plus with property values receding.....

I really don't know what I'm trying to deal with here because I don't know enough about how the intracacies of the set up actually worked. I guess that's why it's hard for people to respond to your request for practical solutions.

When all this mess was first exposed our papers featured a story about a couple who had to sell everything and were reduced to selling their home which, just going from their suburb, was probably valued at around the 350-450k level and living in a caravan. Their son was trying to help them. I'm sure they would have explored all their options before they made that choice.

The talk is a lot of houses in Yarrawonga will be lost. Yarrawonga would be Townsvilles equivalent of Hamilton in Brisbane or Mossman in Sydney. That's where I took the 600k figure from.

As I said every case will be different

 

[Solly]

I'm still hopeful Solly will follow up his beautiful words with some practical hints. Not sure that the mortgagor will find beautiful words OK instead of payments owing.

Julia
I've been told that not all people have survived this episode. I hope it isn't true. That's why I'm a firm believer that if people are in anyway despondent or depressed they quickly seek advice from organisations such as Life Line 13 11 14 , Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636 http://www.beyondblue.org.au/
Any family members or friends that are concerned about their loved ones in trouble can call for advice as well.
There are phases of behavioural change that people go through with episodes like this,
I'm not qualified to give advice in this realm but shock, anger, sadness, grief, depression, irrational thinking can all take over at times.

The memory of the darkest days of hurt will will one day only seem like a bee sting in the future.
Mountains that seem insurmountable at the time will be seen as little mounds on the path out.
But takes it take spades of effort, planning, perseverance and commitment. Never ever doubt that you will come through.

What can I offer as practical suggestions ??
I'm not a financial advisor so anything I say here is purely my opinion.

I am a very wealthy rich person. I have the ability chose where I live, where I travel, with whom I associate. I live in places that some would say are mansions, I travel in quality cars, enjoy flying in jets and travelling in boats & ships. I do all that is possible to ensure I possess great health and I am very very happy. I can look out over the sea or look towards the beautiful hinterland while having a fine wine or a good cold beer. I enjoy the company of a close circle of people.

I spend time off shore, (I am very passionate about a south pacific island a short flight from home, but that's another story)
Life is a very hard master, I wouldn't have it any other way. What a dull boring life it would be if every thing was easy if everything was handed to you on a platter.

You ask about giving practical advice ? How can people with insufficient income meet their obligations?

Beats me I've got no idea and I don't care.
My life is great why would I be concerned about a bunch of people who got themselves into this mess, of high risk geared investing with a bunch of financials wizards from the Fiscal Capital of the modern world - Townsville Qld.

These people made active choices to invest in this strategy, they signed on the bottom line, the result is all of their own making.
They probably smiled and danced in the streets seeing their portfolios in the millions, "riches" like this many would never have seen.
Did it seem a little strange that out of all the, advisors, academics etc there was only one company that had "the perfect strategy" to riches and wealth? Do I hear someone mention Darwin here? But this really doesn't matter.

All I know is that I made my own luck, picked myself up when I got knocked down. I really learnt the meaning of the phrase "Deal with it".
You asked me how old I was when I had these challenges, the answer is old enough to have known better.

I then chose and created my own new reality and never ever gave up. Like a batter on the mound or the crease I just kept swinging until I hit a home run or knocked a ball out of the grounds for a six. If something didn't work I'd try something else, if that didn't work I'd try something else again, if that didn't work I'd try something else again......(This a very important behavioural loop)

I'd ask others who were successful in their field how they did things, you'd be surprised how willing people are to help. One thing I do is I never stand still, inaction is the killer, brooding over things, over analysing mistakes. Keep moving, until you can move no more. One day we all will be dead....I intend to make every day the best day of my life until I am no more. The only thing that exists is this present moment, make the most of it. Nobody on this planet owes me a living, gives me my happiness or my outlook, except me.

My understanding is that many will lose their houses, businesses, farms, money, retirement savings.
My advice to these is to ADAPT, modify your life behaviours, change your expectations, seek a remedy, then seek a remedy, then seek a remedy, then seek a remedy..........regardless of age, health issues, I can't tolerate excuses.

Life will be different now, take an example from the wild, when your environment changes you ADAPT or perish.
Maybe you don't need millions in the bank to live a full meaningful life....

But then again I am a very wealthy rich person, I have the ability chose where I live, where I travel, with whom I associate............ get it?

 

[cutz]

Good morning.

I’m straying a bit off the topic here but I was just wondering how you can break a quote into individual sub quotes, as demonstrated by Julia in post #386?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Macquack]

I'd ask others who were successful in their field how they did things, you'd be surprised how willing people are to help......
But then again I am a very wealthy rich person, I have the ability chose where I live, where I travel, with whom I associate............ get it?

Solly, any actual tips on how you gained your wealth?

 

[daisy]

As harsh as some of Solly's words may have sounded that is the reality of the situation.
Maybe somewhere down the track litigations and idemnities etc may return some money to some of the people caught up in this but you have to deal with the here and now.
As Sails said earlier there were two extremes of people caught up in this. I don't care about the ones who danced in the streets of Italy.
I do care about the ones who just wanted to secure a modest and secure retirement income and who were so financially illiterate they didn't understand what they were doing. Sure, they are still responsible for that blindness but I figure the majority of them are painfully aware of that now, no matter what kind of spin they put on it to avoid the bitterness of the pill they will have to swallow. But none of that rationalising and avoidance will change the reality of the situation they have found themselves in.

As Solly said the here and now for those people is adapt. Forget about personal blame. Life is full of personal challenges. Rise above them. Go to an accountant. Do a personal balance sheet of debt against assets and face the reality of the situation. Once you've got that talk to your accountant and your bank and see what options are available. Also as Solly says if it all seems insurmountable go and talk to someone like beyond blue.
The hurdle you are facing is one that would crush most people. Don't let it crush you. If you need help in dealing with that there is no shame in that.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Julia
I've been told that not all people have survived this episode. I hope it isn't true. That's why I'm a firm believer that if people are in anyway despondent or depressed they quickly seek advice from organisations such as Life Line 13 11 14 , Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636 http://www.beyondblue.org.au/
Any family members or friends that are concerned about their loved ones in trouble can call for advice as well.
There are phases of behavioural change that people go through with episodes like this,
I'm not qualified to give advice in this realm but shock, anger, sadness, grief, depression, irrational thinking can all take over at times.

The memory of the darkest days of hurt will will one day only seem like a bee sting in the future.
Mountains that seem insurmountable at the time will be seen as little mounds on the path out.
But takes it take spades of effort, planning, perseverance and commitment. Never ever doubt that you will come through.

What can I offer as practical suggestions ??
I'm not a financial advisor so anything I say here is purely my opinion.

I am a very wealthy rich person. I have the ability chose where I live, where I travel, with whom I associate. I live in places that some would say are mansions, I travel in quality cars, enjoy flying in jets and travelling in boats & ships. I do all that is possible to ensure I possess great health and I am very very happy. I can look out over the sea or look towards the beautiful hinterland while having a fine wine or a good cold beer. I enjoy the company of a close circle of people.

I spend time off shore, (I am very passionate about a south pacific island a short flight from home, but that's another story)
Life is a very hard master, I wouldn't have it any other way. What a dull boring life it would be if every thing was easy if everything was handed to you on a platter.

You ask about giving practical advice ? How can people with insufficient income meet their obligations?

Beats me I've got no idea and I don't care.
My life is great why would I be concerned about a bunch of people who got themselves into this mess, of high risk geared investing with a bunch of financials wizards from the Fiscal Capital of the modern world - Townsville Qld.

These people made active choices to invest in this strategy, they signed on the bottom line, the result is all of their own making.
They probably smiled and danced in the streets seeing their portfolios in the millions, "riches" like this many would never have seen.
Did it seem a little strange that out of all the, advisors, academics etc there was only one company that had "the perfect strategy" to riches and wealth? Do I hear someone mention Darwin here? But this really doesn't matter.

All I know is that I made my own luck, picked myself up when I got knocked down. I really learnt the meaning of the phrase "Deal with it".
You asked me how old I was when I had these challenges, the answer is old enough to have known better.

I then chose and created my own new reality and never ever gave up. Like a batter on the mound or the crease I just kept swinging until I hit a home run or knocked a ball out of the grounds for a six. If something didn't work I'd try something else, if that didn't work I'd try something else again, if that didn't work I'd try something else again......(This a very important behavioural loop)

I'd ask others who were successful in their field how they did things, you'd be surprised how willing people are to help. One thing I do is I never stand still, inaction is the killer, brooding over things, over analysing mistakes. Keep moving, until you can move no more. One day we all will be dead....I intend to make every day the best day of my life until I am no more. The only thing that exists is this present moment, make the most of it. Nobody on this planet owes me a living, gives me my happiness or my outlook, except me.

My understanding is that many will lose their houses, businesses, farms, money, retirement savings.
My advice to these is to ADAPT, modify your life behaviours, change your expectations, seek a remedy, then seek a remedy, then seek a remedy, then seek a remedy..........regardless of age, health issues, I can't tolerate excuses.

Life will be different now, take an example from the wild, when your environment changes you ADAPT or perish.
Maybe you don't need millions in the bank to live a full meaningful life....

But then again I am a very wealthy rich person, I have the ability chose where I live, where I travel, with whom I associate............ get it?

Solly I have posted this in full as this is exactly the type of smiling white teethed dung that got Storm investors into this mess in the first place.

Through the 80's and 90's a plethora of positive thinking crap came on the market from the US. 7 Habits and all that gumph.

Many simple folk followed the carpetbaggers with the smiles into all sorts of disasters of which Storm is the latest.

So forget all that positive nonsense. These people are in deep ****. Many will not recover.

Let us hope that others will learn from their mistakes.

By the way Solly does the attainment of all your wealth dispose with the necessities of excretion, as your hubris makes me think you are a little bit constipated, protesting your great wealth as if it is of your own making.


gg

 

[sqwark7600]

Great stuff Solly you outdid yourself. Daisy and Julia full marks for your positive discussion.
I agree that maintaining health in mind, body and spirit is the priority for Storm victims. Life is what it is all about so stay focussed and get on with your options.
One that we haven't discussed yet is voluntary bankruptcy. Dirty word to some especially those with a contrary agenda but first port of call for Storm when they realised their failure. I understand it needs some legal support, does not last forever, you can work and earn a living and fight the class action. Google it to check it out and let's get into more positive discussion.
For those overwhelmed by debt it is a legal option.
:sheep: