Sexual harrassment

[basilio]

So this is the 5th woman to come forward with allegations of sexual harassment against the alleged Brittany Higgins rapist.

Well worth reading the whole story. It is far more than one isolated incident. In itself it would be impossible to make a police complaint. But as part of the whole picture of a persons behaviour it isn't going to do this guy any favours.

It sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour a horny, power hungry, self entitled young buck gets up to. Just keep pushing and you will get it - one way or another.

Man accused of raping Brittany Higgins allegedly ‘demanded’ sex from former housemate

An ex-housemate of the man allegedly responsible for raping Brittany Higgins claims he "barged" into her room and "demanded" to have sex. She is the fifth woman to raise allegations against the man.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SirRumpole]

So this is the 5th woman to come forward with allegations of sexual harassment against the alleged Brittany Higgins rapist.

Well worth reading the whole story. It is far more than one isolated incident. In itself it would be impossible to make a police complaint. But as part of the whole picture of a persons behaviour it isn't going to do this guy any favours.

It sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour a horny, power hungry, self entitled young buck gets up to. Just keep pushing and you will get it - one way or another.

Man accused of raping Brittany Higgins allegedly ‘demanded’ sex from former housemate

An ex-housemate of the man allegedly responsible for raping Brittany Higgins claims he "barged" into her room and "demanded" to have sex. She is the fifth woman to raise allegations against the man.

www.abc.net.au

I think this just shows the need to get these low lifes off the street asap.

Women need to know that however shamed they feel they need to report attacks as early as they can so that proper evidence can be taken increasing the chances of conviction.

It might save a lot of other women from being attacked.

 

[basilio]

I think this just shows the need to get these low lifes off the street asap.

Women need to know that however shamed they feel they need to report attacks as early as they can so that proper evidence can be taken increasing the chances of conviction.

It might save a lot of other women from being attacked.

I see your point - but frankly this sort of behaviour is almost only brought to light after the alleged offender is charged with a serious offense and this becomes known.

There is no way the other 4 women who had interactions with this guy could have gone to a police station and made a statement and expected something to happen. It just isn't realistic.

On a more sinister note there is also a risk that mischief makers can submit false reports at will. Clearly this is always a risk.I have no doubt the ASF choir will start singing off that hymn sheet any moment now. I'm still wondering if, in fact, the 4 statements will be allowed as evidence in any forthcoming trial. What is their status in this situation ? Hearsay ? Inadmissible ? Irrelevant ?

Something else to consider. The other allegations about the behaviour of the alleged rapist are coming out because the guy is essentially a political foot soldier. He has also gone into seclusion and officially he hasn't been named. He is no "Big Swinging ...k" .

The last thing a big public figure with a serious accusation made against him is any capacity for other complainants to also speak up and add context to the situation. So having some serious political muscle and the "Rule of Law" behind you is exceptionally helpful. Nothing can be alleged because it hasn't been proven has it ? So it's just a lie.

 

[SirRumpole]

I see your point - but frankly this sort of behaviour is almost only brought to light after the alleged offender is charged with a serious offense and this becomes known.

As far as I know, this guy continued to offend after he allegedly raped Brittany Higgins.

If she had made a complaint earlier it may have stopped him before he did other damage.

NB. I'm not blaming B.H. in any way, she said she had pressure put on her not to complain which I can believe.

The culture around report serious offences like this has to change.

 

[sptrawler]

As far as I know, this guy continued to offend after he allegedly raped Brittany Higgins.

If she had made a complaint earlier it may have stopped him before he did other damage.

NB. I'm not blaming B.H. in any way, she said she had pressure put on her not to complain which I can believe.

The culture around report serious offences like this has to change.

As you and Bas have said, if the person has that character trait, there is every likelyhood they would have re offended and the weight of evidence should be enough to build a case and have the person locked away.
Once one person comes out, other people who have been assaulted usually come forward, when it is shown it isn't an isolated case.

 

[sptrawler]

I see your point - but frankly this sort of behaviour is almost only brought to light after the alleged offender is charged with a serious offense and this becomes known.

There is no way the other 4 women who had interactions with this guy could have gone to a police station and made a statement and expected something to happen. It just isn't realistic.

On a more sinister note there is also a risk that mischief makers can submit false reports at will. Clearly this is always a risk.I have no doubt the ASF choir will start singing off that hymn sheet any moment now. I'm still wondering if, in fact, the 4 statements will be allowed as evidence in any forthcoming trial. What is their status in this situation ? Hearsay ? Inadmissible ? Irrelevant ?

Something else to consider. The other allegations about the behaviour of the alleged rapist are coming out because the guy is essentially a political foot soldier. He has also gone into seclusion and officially he hasn't been named. He is no "Big Swinging ...k" .

The last thing a big public figure with a serious accusation made against him is any capacity for other complainants to also speak up and add context to the situation. So having some serious political muscle and the "Rule of Law" behind you is exceptionally helpful. Nothing can be alleged because it hasn't been proven has it ? So it's just a lie.

Bas if they have sworn a statement and are prepared to be questioned in court, then it is evidence.
I think a sworn statement to the police is actually admissible.
If someone goes to court saying I heard something down the pub, it isn't evidence, it can be added to a list of circumstantial evidence to form a conclusion.
Or if someone isn't prepared to be questioned about the facts, or wont swear to the facts, it becomes inadmissible.
Well that is what I always believed, I may well be wrong, but I don't think we have quite got to the stage where someone can say something and the accused gets thrown in jail.
Having said that, it would save a lot of money, if we just threw people in jail that the media accused of something, from what I have seen on ASF many would agree with it . ?

 

[sptrawler]

So this is the 5th woman to come forward with allegations of sexual harassment against the alleged Brittany Higgins rapist.

Well worth reading the whole story. It is far more than one isolated incident. In itself it would be impossible to make a police complaint. But as part of the whole picture of a persons behaviour it isn't going to do this guy any favours.

It sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour a horny, power hungry, self entitled young buck gets up to. Just keep pushing and you will get it - one way or another.

Man accused of raping Brittany Higgins allegedly ‘demanded’ sex from former housemate

An ex-housemate of the man allegedly responsible for raping Brittany Higgins claims he "barged" into her room and "demanded" to have sex. She is the fifth woman to raise allegations against the man.

www.abc.net.au

And an article by the security guard on duty the night in question.

Security guard who found Brittany Higgins on night of alleged rape speaks out

On March 23, 2019, Nikola Anderson's overnight shift as a security guard at Parliament House was like any other — until Brittany Higgins and her male colleague arrived in the early hours of the morning.

www.abc.net.au

 

[moXJO]

Yep. Just lies and women who change their mind.
The Christian defense

um why did you instantly think of women when I mentioned lying?

A guy could lie that he gave consent.

 

[basilio]

Never rains until it pours in NSW. This has been in the hands of NSW police since September 2020. Apparently the Leader of the NSW Nationals had no idea of the investigation.

NSW MP Michael Johnsen resigns as parliamentary secretary as police investigate alleged rape of sex worker

The Nationals MP for the seat of Upper Hunter says he is devastated by the allegation and is ‘an innocent party’

www.theguardian.com

 

[basilio]

The standing down of Michael Johnsen also threatens the NSW governments control of the House.
Have to say I am surprised that the Premier and Leader of the National Party had no idea this situation was in play. Was it too dangerous to let them know what was happening ?

NSW Police will interview MP tomorrow over rape allegation

The Premier says she is "relieved" police are investigating allegations Nationals MP Michael Johnsen raped a woman in the Blue Mountains in 2019.

www.abc.net.au

...While Mr Johnsen has not resigned from the Nationals, he will not sit in party room meetings while the police investigation takes place, effectively plunging NSW's Coalition government, which had previously had a one-seat majority, into minority.

 

[sptrawler]

The standing down of Michael Johnsen also threatens the NSW governments control of the House.
Have to say I am surprised that the Premier and Leader of the National Party had no idea this situation was in play. Was it too dangerous to let them know what was happening ?

NSW Police will interview MP tomorrow over rape allegation

The Premier says she is "relieved" police are investigating allegations Nationals MP Michael Johnsen raped a woman in the Blue Mountains in 2019.

www.abc.net.au

...While Mr Johnsen has not resigned from the Nationals, he will not sit in party room meetings while the police investigation takes place, effectively plunging NSW's Coalition government, which had previously had a one-seat majority, into minority.

That is why they have ministerial staff to sort what the minister needs to know, obviously sometimes it leaves the minister in a world of pain. ?

 

[basilio]

It says so much about our political/legal systems.

The alleged rape of the sex worker by the NSW MP was reported to the NSW police in September 2020. The police finally decided to interview Michael Johnsen after it was raised in Parliament and the MP was forced to stand down.
So WTF happened in the last 6 months ??

NSW Police will interview MP tomorrow over rape allegation

The Premier says she is "relieved" police are investigating allegations Nationals MP Michael Johnsen raped a woman in the Blue Mountains in 2019.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

It says so much about our political/legal systems.

The alleged rape of the sex worker by the NSW MP was reported to the NSW police in September 2020. The police finally decided to interview Michael Johnsen after it was raised in Parliament and the MP was forced to stand down.
So WTF happened in the last 6 months ??

NSW Police will interview MP tomorrow over rape allegation

The Premier says she is "relieved" police are investigating allegations Nationals MP Michael Johnsen raped a woman in the Blue Mountains in 2019.

www.abc.net.au

Certainly an interesting one, I wonder when all the ex pollies wives and girlfriends will get together and show the ABC all their past SMS conversations. All getting very weird ATM IMO.
A very interesting read.

MP exchanged lewd messages with sex worker during NSW Question Time

NSW politician Michael Johnsen offered a sex worker $1,000 to attend state Parliament for sex and sent the woman a string of lewd text messages and an obscene video while Parliament was sitting.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:
They arranged to meet on September 15, 2019, for a paid sexual encounter.

They agreed to meet at the remote Yellow Rock lookout in the Blue Mountains.

It was here the woman alleges the assault took place.

After their meeting at Yellow Rock lookout, Mr Johnsen invited the woman to his apartment in Potts Point and sent photos of the unit and the rooftop with harbour views.

She declined but agreed to meet him in the Blue Mountains on September 23, where she says she performed paid, consensual oral sex.

The next day, September 24, 2019, the woman texted him a topless photo of herself, to which he responded: "Hmmm … not fair. I'm sitting in the chamber with a hard on now! Xxx

The MP and the woman met one last time at Lennox Bridge on Thursday, September 26, where she says they had paid, consensual sexual intercourse.

She alleges he made only a partial payment for this third meeting and stopped responding to her text messages.

He put new ads for sex on the website but did not engage with her again.

The woman told the ABC she did not report the Yellow Rock incident to police at the time because she did not think they would take her seriously.

"I don't trust the police. What's the point when I was answering an ad from [the classifieds] — a prostitute complaining about having sex? I don't think it's going to be very high on their agenda," she said.

 

[basilio]

Certainly an interesting one, I wonder when all the ex pollies wives and girlfriends will get together and show the ABC all their past SMS conversations. All getting very weird ATM IMO.

Lets try a thought experiment here. There are thunderous denunciations of Michael Johnsen sending sex texts and dirty pics while he was in Parliament to a sex worker. He also tried to get her to come to Parliament for a bit of nooky.
So are people responding to the behaviour itself or who was the recipient ?

1) What if the MP was texting his wife /partner ?
2) What if the MP was texting his staffer who maybe later became a partner ?
3) What if the recipient was the same sex ?
4) What if the MP was the recipient from say a friendly lobbyist who liked mixing business with pleasure or any of the above ?

SP brings up an excellent point. There is evidence most of the above scenarios exist. The release of the extensive text threads is public proof that Michael Johnsen did enthusiastically chase and catch sex workers. The particular legal charge is that he refused to accept the limits she set for their sex at Yellow Rock and then stiffed her for full payment on Lennox Bridge tryst .

The exposure of his behavior is about his hypocrisy in proclaiming family values/morality etc while actively chasing sex workers.

 

[sptrawler]

Lets try a thought experiment here. There are thunderous denunciations of Michael Johnsen sending sex texts and dirty pics while he was in Parliament to a sex worker. He also tried to get her to come to Parliament for a bit of nooky.
So are people responding to the behaviour itself or who was the recipient ?

1) What if the MP was texting his wife /partner ?
2) What if the MP was texting his staffer who maybe later became a partner ?
3) What if the recipient was the same sex ?
4) What if the MP was the recipient from say a friendly lobbyist who liked mixing business with pleasure or any of the above ?

SP brings up an excellent point. There is evidence most of the above scenarios exist. The release of the extensive text threads is public proof that Michael Johnsen did enthusiastically chase and catch sex workers. The particular legal charge is that he refused to accept the limits she set for their sex at Yellow Rock and then stiffed her for full payment on Lennox Bridge tryst .

The exposure of his behavior is about his hypocrisy in proclaiming family values/morality etc while actively chasing sex workers.

It also shows the power of the media as a medium for entrapment, this case alone should be enough to show pollies that they do in fact live in a glass house and their behaviour is a matter of public interest.

 

[basilio]

It also shows the power of the media as a medium for entrapment, this case alone should be enough to show pollies that they do in fact live in a glass house and their behaviour is a matter of public interest.

I suggest exposure is the better word. Traditionally the media has not reported on the private lives of politicians. Everyone knows that life is complicated, messy whatever. ( However if a paper wanted to destroy someone for political reasons a juicy sex scandal is always value. )

What changes this however is when people are completely hypocritical ie strongly defending family values while chasing staff, sex workers and anyone who happens to be around.

The other issue at the moment is questions of aggression and opportunism. These are behind the allegations around Christian Porter and against Brittany Higgins.

 

[sptrawler]

I suggest exposure is the better word. Traditionally the media has not reported on the private lives of politicians. Everyone knows that life is complicated, messy whatever. ( However if a paper wanted to destroy someone for political reasons a juicy sex scandal is always value. )

What changes this however is when people are completely hypocritical ie strongly defending family values while chasing staff, sex workers and anyone who happens to be around.

The other issue at the moment is questions of aggression and opportunism. These are behind the allegations around Christian Porter and against Brittany Higgins.

I have an extremely attractive daughter who worked a paralegal secretary in the city, she has told me that predatory men are very common in the work place and especially at work do's. They are always looking for a hint of an opportunity, so obviously it is rampant in office culture and needs to be stamped out.
In industrial workplaces, where I worked my career, there were a few women worked in the offices and on the floor, but I was only aware of one incident in 40 years and the guy wasn't a full quid. He kept sending love letters to one of the office girls, he was sent for counselling and eventually sacked when his behaviour started to escalate.
Unfortunately people are people and unless there are hard and fast rules, boundaries are tested.
It should be just mandated in all workplaces physical or sexual assault at any level, results in suspension, pending dismissal.
It gets rid of grey areas.
The cases involving Higgins and Porter are different, as they actually break the criminal law code, therefore they have to be handled by the criminal system.

 

[basilio]

This is an excellent story on how a 30 year old attempted rape attack at Sydney University has been resolved.

Well worth a read.

Shock message thirty years after attempted ‘gang rape’ at Sydney University

Last week, Katrine Tully shared her story with the Kidspot podcast, I Swear I Never, about being assaulted by other students 30 years ago at Sydney University.

www.news.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

Probably need to start a new thread on "politicians and staff behaving badly", as these incidents are starting to mount up and cross borders.

Labor MP's staffer charged with producing child exploitation material

Benjamin Waters — a staffer for South Australian Labor MP Nat Cook — faces court charged with producing and possessing child exploitation material after being arrested yesterday.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:
A South Australian Labor staffer has faced court charged with producing and possessing child exploitation material.
Benjamin Waters was arrested yesterday by the South Australia Joint Anti Child Exploitation Team (JACET) following an investigation by SA Police and the Australian Federal Police (AFP).

The 38-year-old has worked as a staffer for Labor Member for Hurtle Vale Nat Cook.

Mr Waters has been charged with one count of producing child abuse material through a carriage service and four counts of possessing child exploitation material.

 

[basilio]

In the US Republician Congressman Matt Gaetz is facing serious problems with alleged relationships with young girls (amongst other issues)
Another Democratic Congresswoman resigned a couple of years ago when she faced a sex scandal. It turns out Matt was one of the very few politicians who publicly supported and befriended her.

This is an interesting perspective on politics across party lines.

Matt Gaetz Defended Me When My Nudes Were Shared Without My Consent. Now He’s Accused of Doing Just That

Matt and I forged an unlikely friendship in Congress, and he was one of the few colleagues who spoke out after a malicious nude-photo leak upended my life. But if recent reports are true, he engaged in the very practice he defended me from—and should resign immediately.

www.vanityfair.com