Serious question do you believe...

[Milk Man]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Personally im agnostic (thanks for the new word guys : ) about the existence of the devil. I think it is logical that you can believe in god and not the devil but not vice-versa. What do you guys think?

 

[son of baglimit]

Re: Serious question do you believe

a one word answer - NO

 

[amohonour]

Re: Serious question do you believe

what does your no refer to?

 

[son of baglimit]

Re: Serious question do you believe

GOD - NO
DEVIL - NO
BETFAIR - NO

 

[crash82au]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Im pretty sure god is in control of the price of an ounce of gold at the moment

 

[Julia]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Julia,

This is merely my opinion/experience.

I personally find it harder to make decisions.
What I find many people don't seem to realiase is that "Gods Will" is not set in concrete, we have the power to change it.

As an example, it is against Gods will to commit suicide yet we hold the power to do so.

Believing in God therefore makes the decision process harder for me becuase I often want what may not be best for me/am selfish etc etc.


Just my two cents worth

Clowboy,

That's a really interesting response. My conception of "God's will" was more about the stuff that happens over which we have no apparent control, e.g. famines, earthquakes etc (but not necessarily just the awful things - also a beauiful sunset, the first daffodil in springtime etc.)

What you are describing I would have thought was more a facet of religion as created by man?
Isn't, for example, the example you give about suicide something found either in the Bible or in some other religious construct? Therefore you can only "know" it is God's will because whoever wrote the Bible says it is so, and presumably those authors were human beings. ipso facto, how can it be God's will?
I guess the answer to that will be that "God gave them this knowledge of what his Will would be"?

Another question which comes up is "we need God (or a belief in God) to know what is right and wrong".
I would totally disagree with that: it is perfectly possible to have a sound moral and ethical philosophy without it deriving from a religious base.
Re your last sentence, I think the same dilemma could well apply to someone who is simply morally aware without believing in God or having any religious affiliations.

Would be genuinely interested in your response to these questions.


Julia

 

[Julia]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Personally im agnostic (thanks for the new word guys : ) about the existence of the devil. I think it is logical that you can believe in god and not the devil but not vice-versa. What do you guys think?

Perhaps. Then I suppose you have to define "God". How would you do that?

Julia

 

[wayneL]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Perhaps. Then I suppose you have to define "God". How would you do that?

Julia

The eternal question.

There may be a milliom definitions of God. ALL of which may be true; or perhaps NONE of which are true.

Could it be that God is everything and all that there is? Including you and me, the grain of sand on the beach, the Milky Way and all in between?

I don't go for the religious construct of the separation of God and everything else. This is purely a control mechanism.

IMO Cheers

 

[Smurf1976]

Re: Serious question do you believe

To me the word "devil" is literally a joke. It had never occurred to me that the question even related to religion in any way. I mean, to me, someone saying "is the devil real" is like asking if I believe that a UFO carrying 3 green men really did land somewhere this morning. The mere mention of a Devil is, to me at least, something not to be taken seriously and I hadn't realised until today that anyone actually believes in the Devil other than as something to joke about.

No surprises for guessing that I'm not religious at all...

 

[clowboy]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Clowboy,

That's a really interesting response. My conception of "God's will" was more about the stuff that happens over which we have no apparent control, e.g. famines, earthquakes etc (but not necessarily just the awful things - also a beauiful sunset, the first daffodil in springtime etc.)

What you are describing I would have thought was more a facet of religion as created by man?
Isn't, for example, the example you give about suicide something found either in the Bible or in some other religious construct? Therefore you can only "know" it is God's will because whoever wrote the Bible says it is so, and presumably those authors were human beings. ipso facto, how can it be God's will?
I guess the answer to that will be that "God gave them this knowledge of what his Will would be"?

Another question which comes up is "we need God (or a belief in God) to know what is right and wrong".
I would totally disagree with that: it is perfectly possible to have a sound moral and ethical philosophy without it deriving from a religious base.
Re your last sentence, I think the same dilemma could well apply to someone who is simply morally aware without believing in God or having any religious affiliations.

Would be genuinely interested in your response to these questions.


Julia

Julia,

I will try to answer your questions as best as my limited knowledge allows.
The most problematic thing with the bible etc is that to some degree it is open to interpretation.

In terms of "gods will" in a natural sense a beautiful flower or sunset is really only his will in that he created the earth and all it's glory. A famine or earthquake is also not God's will IMO. According to the bible when the earth was created it was faultless and these such natural disastors did not exist (hence my reasoning that it is not his will.)

The question then becomes who's will is it - Perhaps the devils.

My comments where more aimed at the use of the excuse "Gods will" as no matter what the eample it is our actions that are the deciding factor.

To use your example - a famine. Suppose that the famine is god's will. does that also mean that it is god's will that we do nothing more than say "Oh well it is God's will?" The answer would be no - what his will is becomes the hard decision. (Ultimatley his will is for people to come to know him.)

The question to spring up is .....so do you therefore mean that in order to care for fellow hummans (offer donations etc) you need to believe in God?

Answer NO.

In answer to knowing God's will that is a combination of things, partly what he tells us in the bible (basically what you said) and mostly what he tells us directly. - sometimes maybe we dont know god's will (I have often faced this dilemma).

We don't nesacarily need to believe in god to know right or wrong depending on how we define right and wrong.

right and wrong is really just "good for us" and "bad for us" which is a learning curve. (our laws are a colective of our past lessons).

As an example cheating on your wife/husband is "bad for us" and therefore wrong.

The problem is that we forget our lessons and cheating on someone is an awful lot of fun at the time. Trust in God to teach us right and wrong means that we don't have to make the mistake in order to learn it first.

The biggest stumbling block we face is IMO.

1) you dont have to believe in something for it to exist.
2) The devil is the default position, not God

That is to say that God may or may not exist. If however he does and you choose to believe he does not, he still does and so does the devil only the devil represents all that is superfical (which brings satisfaction) within the world.

Having said that.

There are people in the world that do not believe in God and have a moral standing that would far outdo many of those who do believe in God and there are many people who do believe in God and have a moral standing that is beyond shameful.


as an example of my last statement in my last post.

In the past I have wanted to divorce my Wife and had it not been for a belief in god would have done so which would have resulted in large amounts of short term happiness.(amongst the pain) Instead I have stuck with her (which has brought much pain) but as each day passes I get closer and closer to true happiness. Looking back the thing thats sticks out the most is how hard the decision was and how easy it would have been if I did not believe in God.


Hope that sheeds some light on my thoughts, i am not very good at putting what I think into words so it may just be a series of confusing ramblings.


Cheers

 

[Fleeta]

Re: Serious question do you believe

GOD - NO
DEVIL - NO
BETFAIR - NO

I'd say you are wrong Baglimit. After your stock tips, i'm thinking this:

GOD - Baglimit
DEVIL - Tabcorp
BETFAIR - Good for consumers

 

[Smurf1976]

Re: Serious question do you believe

In the past I have wanted to divorce my Wife...

Does your wife ever look at ASF? She might get a bit stressed reading that!

 

[Julia]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Clowboy:

Thanks for your response. I acknowledge the sincerity of your beliefs.
However, you haven't answered the question:
"who wrote the Bible"?
Why do you believe that what is written in the Bible any more represents a formula for good living than any other of the zillions of personal self help books which abound on the shelves of bookstores?

Do you think it is possible that you believe in the existence of the Devil as a mechanism to excuse the :swear: stuff that happens which would otherwise have to be blamed on God?

Please don't think I'm trying to "get at you". Not at all. I have always been fascinated by this belief/non-belief thing since I had a brief look at Religious Studies at uni some years ago.

Like Smurf, I can only hope your wife doesn't cast her eyes over this thread unless, that is, you have such an honest relationship that she understands it is only God who keeps you with her.

Is there anything that could happen in your life which would shake your belief in God?

Julia

 

[Julia]

Re: Serious question do you believe

To me the word "devil" is literally a joke. It had never occurred to me that the question even related to religion in any way. I mean, to me, someone saying "is the devil real" is like asking if I believe that a UFO carrying 3 green men really did land somewhere this morning. The mere mention of a Devil is, to me at least, something not to be taken seriously and I hadn't realised until today that anyone actually believes in the Devil other than as something to joke about.

No surprises for guessing that I'm not religious at all...

Smurf:

Quite educational, isn't it. I would guess you saw "Rosemary's Baby" many years ago. (I think that's what it was called - starred Mia Farrow). Remember the exorcism scene? That is the stuff of absolutely genuine beliefs of some religious people I have known. From there, it is one easy step to brand, e.g. schizophrenia as being caused by the Devil inhabiting someone's soul. Again, it is just one further step for religious devotees to reject effective anti-psychotic medication which can provide control of the psychosis.

Julia

 

[happytrader]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Hi Julia

Many mentally ill people often see themselves as persecuted religious characters and central to carrying out 'Gods' will or to save the world.The amazing part is they can usually quote stuff quite accurately from the Bible - its all that focus. Some could probably be quite convincing as sect or religious leaders to people who didn't know any better.

Cheers
Happytrader

 

[clowboy]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Julia,

I am not the smarest person ever meet so I can only answer with the limited knowledge I have.


Humans wrote the Bible.

I personally consider it to represent a better formula from my experince with those who use it.

No I don't think I use him as an excuse and often bad things "MAY" be a result of God's doing - he does after all have a wrath.

My wife does not read the forums - but if she where to she would understand, I used something personal that has happened in my life as it made the best example.


Yes there are many things that could happen in my life that would shake my belief. I know you ask this question more in a big event sense - like for example the death of ones wife or child etc but for me I am "REALLY" chalanged daily.

As an example..

If god knows all and controls all then why would he design an earth and the human race knowing full well that it was destined to fail (Adam eating the apple).


PS Hopefully I am not offending anyone, I dont mean to, nor do I want to apear like a preacher or that I am some way supier to anyone (God knows I am not) - I am just providing my view.

 

[kerosam]

Re: Serious question do you believe

i attend the baptist church once a week here. and yes, i do believe that the devil is real. if you believe that the bible is true, and only if, he is seeking company when he (the devil) is due to be condemn into the lake of fire for eternalty.

i might not be able to answer some good questions, but allow me to point to some directions for some possible answers. topic on:

1. God's will. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the principles in the bible, be it direct (sermon on the mount) or indirect (parables in the gospels and accounts in the ol testament), would be God's will. all said, this does not negates human's responsibilty. so if someone base their decision making according to the principles fo the bible, they would be excersing the will of God.

2. Bible written by humans. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the relevation of God was captured in the writings of scripture (the bible) by means of 'inspiration'... humans were mere mediums.

3. the word 'christian' to some has subjective meanings. to some, in fact majority, christians are ALL who embrace the God who created this world. to some, as what i understand, christians refers to the protestants. So from what i know, catholics, jehovah witness, seven day adventist just to name few do not fall to some people's category as christians.

4. adam and eve did ate a fruit at the garden... whether it is an apple or not, no one knows. genesis does not say what fruit except a painter who drew it. hey, by the way, who grew that picture of adam and eve?

i'm not a theology scholar, there are books written about these topics except no 4, selling in christian bookshops, try Koorong or The Word. i spend some good time there to get answers. i encourage anyone to do that and if you happen to be in Koorong in Adelaide, try their brownies.... one of the best.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Some questions for discussion...this is not a go or an attack, just quoting you kero cause its the latest post

i attend the baptist church once a week here. and yes, i do believe that the devil is real. if you believe that the bible is true, and only if, he is seeking company when he (the devil) is due to be condemn into the lake of fire for eternalty.

Why would God give us free will and then punish us for exersizing it? e.g. those who choose not to believe in Him, yet are good moral people. Why such a horrible neverending torture for such insignificant and in a lot of cases unknowing transgression. It seems incredibly cruel, and dare I say "unforgiving"

i might not be able to answer some good questions, but allow me to point to some directions for some possible answers. topic on:

1. God's will. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the principles in the bible, be it direct (sermon on the mount) or indirect (parables in the gospels and accounts in the ol testament), would be God's will. all said, this does not negates human's responsibilty. so if someone base their decision making according to the principles fo the bible, they would be excersing the will of God.

How does human free will fit in with Gods will. What if, in my free will, I choose not to believe the bible is inspired by God, even if I believe in Him? Could God be completely neutral? Allowing total free will?

2. Bible written by humans. if you believe that the bible is the true word of God, the relevation of God was captured in the writings of scripture (the bible) by means of 'inspiration'... humans were mere mediums.

Why are other mediums and writings, which are claimed to be inspired, condemned as works of "the devil". e.g. Neale Donald Walshe. Why couldn't have God spoken to him if he spoke to Moses et al? Could Moses have been a nutter, delusional?

If the Bible is Gods inspired word, why did he only ever talk to Jews? According to the church, he has never spoken to a christian. Why?

4. adam and eve did ate a fruit at the garden... whether it is an apple or not, no one knows. genesis does not say what fruit except a painter who drew it. hey, by the way, who grew that picture of adam and eve?

What of science, and the theory of evolution? (another religion requiring a leap of faith IMO) How does the christian explain away discoveries of fossil records which, even if they don't prove anything, can at least disprove the literal creation account?

As Paul implored Timothy, test everything!

Why should we blindly accept dogma. The church is notorious for changing its story as expedient in order to maintain control...beginning with the Council of Nicaea.

The God of the Bible, is riddled with human failings...jealousy, wrath, vengeance, need to be worshipped. These are human needs and failings.

The Real God, if we flick off the rubbish of the last two millenia, is most probably entirely different.... maybe no further away than your fingertips!

Just for discussion folks.

IMO Cheers

 

[son of baglimit]

Re: Serious question do you believe

fleeta - ive been waiting for you to put ya 2 bobs worth in here - and you havent let me down - im god am i ? - is this a true character assessment, or r u trying to remain in my good books so i reveal my next BIG THING - oh yeah its coming soon.

 

[Julia]

Re: Serious question do you believe

Clowboy, Kerosam, and Amohonour,

Will be interested to read your answers to Wayne's questions above.

The only friend I have who is devoutly religious is Seventh Day Adventist.
She absolutely believes the SDA exclusively understands the word of God as it is written in the Bible. Seventh Day Adventists are not alone in this conviction. Many "branches" of christianity will maintain that they alone are God's chosen people and unless the rest of us join them we are definitely doomed to a literal fire and brimstone type of Hell where the Devil reigns for ever.

Could each of you say whether you believe those who do not practise any religion and/or do not accept that the Bible is the word of God will in fact be condemned to the fate described above?


Quite separate issue:

Would you consider that religion's purpose, if not to control people, is to comfort them? i.e. provide some sense of structure, or even purpose in what otherwise might seem to be a life without direction? I think it was Thoreau who said "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation".
I suppose what I'm wondering is why do people need to have faith in something other than themselves.
Whenever I hear platitudes such as "even though we don't understand why little Mary died of leukaemia aged 5, we know it is all part of God's plan and has to be for the best" I feel like throwing up. I doubt that little Mary would agree it was for the best!

Again, no offence to the advocates of religion. It's interesting to have the discussion.

Julia