School BBQs - Halal or not?

[db94]

Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.

I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.

Interestingly, the Koran states that if no halal meat is available it's okay to eat non halal meat, so they should just be tolerant and eat what the others are eating.

I have no problem with people having what they want, but I do have a problem with one group preventing another from doing what they want to do. If everything is halal it will mean you can't ever cook pork on those barbecues. If someone turns up with regular sausages from the supermarket, too bad, you miss out, you can't cook them. If I turned up with some lamb chops or chicken wings, too bad, I can't cook them.

If one group wants to do their own thing, no worries, that's fine, do your own thing, bring your own barbecue and your own meat, eat whatever you like, but don't put restrictions on others. Even if it's a very trivial matter in this case, the precedent it sets is a very dangerous one, it's a small step in a very wrong direction, and paths the way for more steps in that same direction.

+4 well said. Not everyone can be pleased. If they want halal meat they can provide it at the BBQ. Just like vegetarians at my school's camps are told to bring the food they want instead of being catered for. Local butchers these days are very rare and should be supported.

EDIT: I graduated last year

 

[johenmo]

It is possible for muslims (at least some of them) to eat non-halal meat, if it is by necessity. I had this conversations years ago with a muslim, who used to inspect our factory for halal cleaning. This covered in one Quranic verse(Surah) 2:173.

Meat that is forbidden is classed Haram and to eat it knowingly is a sin. To eat it unknowingly is not a sin (or at least as bad - I forget the term for this).

So does this mean there's no necessity to provide different? A different story from respecting differences.

 

[Smurf1976]

Humane treatment of animals ought to take priority over religion so far as I'm concerned.

The school should make all possible efforts to ensure that all meat is from animals killed humanely. If that upsets someone then so be it - inhumane methods are not acceptable in Australia and that is the end of the story.

 

[CanOz]

Humane treatment of animals ought to take priority over religion so far as I'm concerned.

So agree with that! The animals were here first after all...

 

[McLovin]

The school should make all possible efforts to ensure that all meat is from animals killed humanely. If that upsets someone then so be it - inhumane methods are not acceptable in Australia and that is the end of the story.

Ever seen a sow stall? It makes slitting an animal's throat seem kind. Perfectly legal too. Just like battery farm chickens.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/minister-backflips-on-sow-stall-ban-20121109-292lx.html

 

[Julia]

Humane treatment of animals ought to take priority over religion so far as I'm concerned.

The school should make all possible efforts to ensure that all meat is from animals killed humanely. If that upsets someone then so be it - inhumane methods are not acceptable in Australia and that is the end of the story.

+1 x 10.

So agree with that! The animals were here first after all...

Nothing to do with who was here first. Cruelty by a dominant species is hideous.

 

[chops_a_must]

+1 x 10.


Nothing to do with who was here first. Cruelty by a dominant species is hideous.

Lions, ferrets, cats, dogs and humans are all hideously cruel.

I don't buy this cruelty to animals 21st century nonsense get up.

If you eat meat, it's cruel. If you don't like it - be a vego.

We let our older people die in more cruel ways than our cattle.

But if you see it for what it is, that's fine. But let's not pretend that things aren't what they are.

 

[CanOz]

Lions, ferrets, cats, dogs and humans are all hideously cruel.

I don't buy this cruelty to animals 21st century nonsense get up.

If you eat meat, it's cruel. If you don't like it - be a vego.

We let our older people die in more cruel ways than our cattle.

But if you see it for what it is, that's fine. But let's not pretend that things aren't what they are.

Fair comment, but there are ways to kill and get it done with. You don't need to let an animal suffer Chops.

Battery chickens and cattle feedlots disgust me beyond thought. If at had the entire decision i would raise my own proteins.

CanOz

 

[Smurf1976]

Battery chickens and cattle feedlots disgust me beyond thought. If at had the entire decision i would raise my own proteins.

It was 1986 when I went inside one of those chicken batteries for the first (and hopefully last) time. I still recall the images very clearly in my mind and it's something I will never forget. There's a pretty nasty smell inside too.

As for the "free range costs too much" argument, my response is simply "so what?". It's not as though a rise in egg prices is going to put 100,000 people out of work and plunge the economy into recession or something like that so the economics aren't even a real issue.

 

[sptrawler]

It was 1986 when I went inside one of those chicken batteries for the first (and hopefully last) time. I still recall the images very clearly in my mind and it's something I will never forget. There's a pretty nasty smell inside too.

As for the "free range costs too much" argument, my response is simply "so what?". It's not as though a rise in egg prices is going to put 100,000 people out of work and plunge the economy into recession or something like that so the economics aren't even a real issue.

Also employs more people to actually go and pick up the eggs, rather than have them roll into the tray in front of the cage.
Then an auger transfers them to the collection bin.

 

[bunyip]

Cruelty by a dominant species is hideous.

Guess you’re not a fan of those African wildlife doccos then, eh Julia, where half a dozen lions drag down a buffalo, or a cheetah runs down and kills a gazelle, or a leopard takes out a warthog?

I take your point though, that unnecessary cruelty by humans to animals in the slaughter process, or for that matter in any other situation, is unacceptable.
The footage I’ve seen of animals being slaughtered by traditional methods in some of those Islamic countries, is, to put it mildly, barbaric and disturbing. As are many other Islamic customs.
The thought of them trying to impose their weirdo ideas on something as harmless and innocent as a school barbeque is quite offensive.

 

[bunyip]

Also employs more people to actually go and pick up the eggs, rather than have them roll into the tray in front of the cage.
Then an auger transfers them to the collection bin.

We’re getting a bit off topic here, but are you folks aware that ‘free range’ eggs are not necessarily free range at all?

A bloke down the road from me sells ‘free range’ eggs to a number of pubs and shops. His 100 chooks are in a big pen about six times the size of your average house. The ground in the pen is completely denuded of vegetation. The chooks are fed on bought grain that’s been chemically treated, and they get a small amount of seeds and greenery from a couple of dozen edible shrubs he’s planted. As for them catching grubs and and worms as they’d do in a true free range situation, forget it – the ground is so bare that there’s no leaf litter or any other ground cover to harbor grubs and worms. It’s just bare hard ground that’s been tramped down by a hundred chooks roaming over it every day.
As far as I’m concerned he’s selling eggs under false pretenses by calling them free range eggs. But it’s legal, and there are many free range egg producers just like him.
I always thought ‘free range’ meant the chooks were free to wander wherever they wanted, not locked in a pen, and lived entirely off the land. But that not necessarily the case.

 

[Sdajii]

We’re getting a bit off topic here, but are you folks aware that ‘free range’ eggs are not necessarily free range at all?

A bloke down the road from me sells ‘free range’ eggs to a number of pubs and shops. His 100 chooks are in a big pen about six times the size of your average house. The ground in the pen is completely denuded of vegetation. The chooks are fed on bought grain that’s been chemically treated, and they get a small amount of seeds and greenery from a couple of dozen edible shrubs he’s planted. As for them catching grubs and and worms as they’d do in a true free range situation, forget it – the ground is so bare that there’s no leaf litter or any other ground cover to harbor grubs and worms. It’s just bare hard ground that’s been tramped down by a hundred chooks roaming over it every day.
As far as I’m concerned he’s selling eggs under false pretenses by calling them free range eggs. But it’s legal, and there are many free range egg producers just like him.
I always thought ‘free range’ meant the chooks were free to wander wherever they wanted, not locked in a pen, and lived entirely off the land. But that not necessarily the case.

We're getting pretty off topic here, but oh well.

It's a myth that battery chickens are tortured and free range chickens live happy, carefree, peaceful lives in big open meadows. I've seen free range chicken farms where chickens are let loose in big open fields all day other than when they roost in the shed ('barn') at night. They're very unnatural and not pleasant. Chickens are vicious little monsters which fiercely fight for their place in the hierarchy (the origin of the term pecking order). Chickens naturally live in small groups, and even then the smallest one often lives a very hard and unpleasant life, but once the pecking order is established they get along okay. In an unnatural group of hundreds or thousands of chickens, it is impossible to establish a pecking order so they're constantly fighting. The smaller ones literally get pecked to death, often living sickly, tortured lives for weeks or months until the attacks and injuries get the better of them. It's very common to see chickens on free range farms with most of their feathers missing after they've been plucked out by other chickens. Comparing which is better for chicken wellbeing out of battery and free range is a bit like apples and oranges, they suffer in different ways, but neither is clearly better than the other. Perhaps because free range is more expensive, or because people are more happy to excuse chickens hurting each other than humans putting them in small cages, the naive public generally strongly believes that free range is clearly superior, but talk to people who have studied farming or work in the industry (unless they're biased free range farm owners!) and they'll tell you a different story.

With there being no clear ethical choice, I go for the cheaper, more efficient one. I do miss having my own chickens, it was walking down to the back of the yard to collect eggs in the morning laid by happy hens.

 

[bunyip]

Comparing which is better for chicken wellbeing out of battery and free range is a bit like apples and oranges, they suffer in different ways, but neither is clearly better than the other.

Can’t agree with you there, Sdajii. My chooks are let out of the pen every day to roam more or less as they please, scratching in the leaf litter under trees for grubs and small lizards, catching grasshoppers etc. They come back to their pen each evening by choice, and I shut the gate on them as protection from foxes.
I can assure you they enjoy life immensely. I very much doubt if battery hens enjoy life in their cramped and completely unnatural conditions.

Now, I’m not sure what all this has to do with whether school barbies should serve halal meat, but heck, there’s no harm in getting off topic once in a while eh?

 

[DocK]

The "whole idea" of private education is choice. The "image" is that they turn out a better product than public schools. If "poor and bogan families" aspire to raising their children's choices then they have to work for it like everybody else.

You say "exclusivity is part of the school's charter". Do you have any basis for this ridiculous insinuation. I'm pretty sure DocK would disagree with you.

I would indeed. From Dept of Ed Qld:

Explanation - Inclusivity describes the degree to which non-dominant groups are represented in classroom practices by participation. Non-dominant groups are identified in relation to broad societal-level dimensions of social inclusion/exclusion
Lack of inclusivity is apparent when the students' backgrounds are ignored and they are treated as a homogenous group. This often results in some groups being unable or unwilling to contribute.


Inclusivity describes the degree to which non-dominant groups are represented in classroom practices by participation. Non-dominant groups are identified in relation to broad societal-level dimensions of social inclusion/exclusion.

Lack of inclusivity is apparent when the students' backgrounds are ignored and they are treated as a homogenous group. This often results in some groups being unable or unwilling to contribute..

http://education.qld.gov.au/corporate/newbasics/html/pedagogies/differ/dif2a.html

My original post mentioned that this issue was raised at a P&F meeting. Maybe I need to remind some that P&F stands for parents & friends. It is certainly not a case of a minority group attempting to dictate terms, or diet, but more a case of the P&F committee wishing to ensure that all students and parents feel welcomed, cared for and included. Our school actively fosters tolerance, understanding and a desire to accommodate differing beliefs and cultures where possible. Australia's demographics have changed markedly in the last several years, and to pretend otherwise would be futile.

Having said that, the school follows and practices the Christian traditions of Easter and Christmas, with many activities based around these events in the junior school.

Work for it? LOL. How long is the average person going to work to pay $30,000* a year from their after tax earnings? Say you have two kids...that's $60,000. So you have to be pulling well over $120,000 just to cover fees. Where do you get the money for the mortgage, food, services and bills?

Private schools are highly exclusive. They exclude based upon wealth and ability (in the case of scholarship).
That's fine, I don't have a problem with that. But let's be real.

*edit: year 12 fees.

The fees you've based your argument upon would apply to only the most prestigious private schools I'm guessing. The one my children attend charges more in the range of $5 - $10K depending upon year level. It is indeed true that not all parents can afford to send their children to a private school, but nor could the public schools in my area possibly cope if the private schools were not catering to a % of the students who would otherwise stretch the system to breaking point. There are a few very wealthy families in our school community, many more are comfortable provided both parents are working, and there are some that scrimp and save to send their kids to the school of their choice. Interestingly, our school has a rather high % of parents who are "tradies" and are sending their kids to a private school with the hope that they'll do better in life than their parents.

So DocK belongs to the privileged wealthy upper-class. I don't think she would agree with that. You think like Swan, with a class war mentality. You obviously can't understand that some people scrimp and save to give their children a better start in life.

Oh, if only..... My kids are actually on one full and one half academic scholarship, for which I'm very thankful as I don't think we'd be able to stretch the budget far enough to cover the full fees if we had to. I'd love to give the privileged upper-class lifestyle a whirl (at least for a little while), but I'm like a great deal of the other Mums in my school community - working part-time to bolster the family income and cover the school fees.

My main concerns are the animal cruelty aspect, and that of loyalty to existing suppliers. I understand that animals slaughtered in Qld in the halal method must be stunned before having their jugulars severed, but I'm aware that the RSPCA has reservations, and I'm not confident that the cruelty aspect would be of great importance to all halal butchers. No animal slaughter is without a degree of cruelty, and those of us that eat meat must accept that it simply isn't possible for there to be absolutely no degree of suffering by the animals we consume - but I'd prefer to believe the least possible cruelty was involved in the preparation of the food I eat.

Although it's certainly true that muslims (not sure about Jews or other minorities) can eat non-halal meat if they have no other choice - I don't know that many would consider a snag at a school sports carnival an example of having no other choice. At present, most of the children who don't wish to eat non-halal meat simply bring their own food, or eat the vegie burgers we cook separately to cater for them and the few vegetarian students.

I've actually had a quiet word with the butcher that currently supplies us and he does not deal with any halal suppliers and has no intention of going down that road. He indicated to me that putting a halal sign in his window or on any of his products is almost guaranteed to alienate more of his existing customer base than the potential new business he'd potentially gain. I guess that's a fairly telling comment on the resentment the general community is currently feeling with the various accommodations being made/imposed upon it due to minority groups. Personally I feel there is a generational aspect to this resentment, with gen Y being far more tolerant than the baby boomers - which is perfectly understandable as they've grown up in a very different Australia to that of their grandparents' childhoods. People resent change, and I feel this will be the deciding factor in the P&C's eventual decision - I'm predicting the majority will vote to retain the status quo and seize upon any excuse other than voice the politically incorrect (and outdated in my view) notion that those that come to this country should be made to think as we do, eat as we do, behave as we do, or bugger off!

 

[chops_a_must]

Speaking from experience...

Our cricket club puts on a free sausage sizzle with its AGM.

We have Pakistanis, Indians, Tamils, singhas, bangladeshis, racist Aussies and many others. A liquorice all sorts.

We have a BBQ for plain meat. We also have another for halal and veggie replacements. We have a few Vegos as well.

It works well. And after a few beers, the racist Aussie types end up eating the leftover halal and veggie stuff anyway.

 

[chops_a_must]

So I guess the moral of the story is that you should give the kids and parents beer.

That way they won't know the difference anyway.

 

[DocK]

Speaking from experience...

Our cricket club puts on a free sausage sizzle with its AGM.

We have Pakistanis, Indians, Tamils, singhas, bangladeshis, racist Aussies and many others. A liquorice all sorts.

We have a BBQ for plain meat. We also have another for halal and veggie replacements. We have a few Vegos as well.

It works well. And after a few beers, the racist Aussie types end up eating the leftover halal and veggie stuff anyway.

I agree - I think this would be the best way forward. We presently run 2 BBQs anyway, so only need replace the older. The present supplier would retain at least half of our business, which is a better outcome than taking it all away from him. I have no doubt that hungry teenagers will polish off whatever is left over - most of the kids couldn't care less whether it's halal or not anyway.

I'm not entirely sure the principal would look kindly upon the P&F supplying beer though - no matter how popular a move it might be with the Dads

 

[CanOz]

Speaking from experience...

Our cricket club puts on a free sausage sizzle with its AGM.

We have Pakistanis, Indians, Tamils, singhas, bangladeshis, racist Aussies and many others. A liquorice all sorts.

Which group best describes you Chops?

 

[chops_a_must]

Which group best describes you Chops?

The sausage.