RU486 - so called "abortion pill"

Smurf1976 · 13 February 2006

weird said:
I wonder if RU486 was around in our grandparents time, how many 'currently alive' people in this forum would even be able to respond to this post

Can't argue with the logic there but it would be exactly the same if they hadn't had sex in the first place. Some of us wouldn't be here.

I have no problem with your views but I find it really strange that the church (most if not all religions) takes the view that (1) abortion is wrong (2) sex outside of marriage is wrong.

Now, if the argument is about killing unborn babies etc then I can follow that logic. No problem so far. But the anti-abortionists practically always bring up the argument that you or I wouldn't be here if we had been aborted. That is correct in a logical sense but it is an incompatible argument with the idea that there is something wrong with sex outside of marriage since prevention of that would also have caused some of us not to be here.

Many, particularly the church, preach both which is contradictory since they are both supporting and opposing things which lead to the same outcome whilst arguing that the outcome is the basis of their reasoning. Just doesn't stack up. It would make sense if there wasn't the "you might not be here" argument used to justify the position taken. But they keep raising that very argument.

As I said, nothing personal. I'm not particularly keen on abortions myself (though I accept them as inevitable in practice and therefore support proper standards and proceedures) but I just take issue with the "you might not be alive today" argument against abortion whilst many of it's supporters continue to argue in favour of other ideas which also lead to the exact same result. Can't have it both ways.

Julia · 13 February 2006

jimbarmather said:
Hi,
Interesting comments, My view is that as abortion is legal the only consideration should be if this pill is safe and only the medical profession should evaluate this not a minister etc.

As to whether abortion should be legal is a different matter. Every child should be a loved and wanted child and if either of the parents cannot give this love and care then to me it is better for the mother to have an abortion.

I also think that your opinions change as to your age and sex, when you are young and could be faced with the reality of supporting a child for 20 years without support and little income, you can put yourself in that position and have sympathy for it
When you are older and can just think about the moral issues from your comfy armchair with money in the bank and a house paid for it's easy to say that abortion should not take place.

I have been in both situations a lot of older biased men haven't.
B.

Hello B

You've put that very well and I agree. A lot of my views about many areas of life have changed as I've been exposed to the suffering so many people experience. Sitting in judgment on someone only increases their incapacity to cope.

Julia

bullmarket · 13 February 2006

Hi Prospector

Prospector said:
But that line does exist Bullmarket! It is the time at which a fetus can survive if it is born. And that is about 26 - 28 weeks, where it is viable for a fetus to draw breath on its own! Before then, it can't - it is almost a parasite if you like because it cannot survive without its 'host' - the mother.

I am totally against abortions after 24 weeks, because the infant could, potentially, with lots of life support though, exist. However, before that time, I dont consider that the fetus is viable on its own. And that, not coincidentally, is the time when abortions cant legally be performed.

and therein lies one fundamental difference which forms the basis for our different views.

I believe the line doesn't exist because to me human life begins at conception and not further down the track. And imo that human life, even at the embrionic stage, has just as much right to life as you and I and everyone else. A lot of people use your 'line in the sand' and the reasoning behind it to justify the killing of what I believe is still a human being from conception to your line, although granted at a very early stage of physical development.

I can see what you are getting at with your reference to an unborn child being a parasite, for want of a better description, but I don't accept that as a valid argument to help determine where the 'line in the sand' is because even a new born is obviously a parasite because it cannot survive on its own. To me, an unborn child at any stage of pregnancy and a new born child are both parasites, to use your description, the only difference as I see it is the extent to which both are dependant on their mothers.

I accept that you and others with simialr views to you will use that line to help justify killing another human being and you are all entitled to take that view. All I am saying is that I don't agree with your view and line and hence that is one reason for our differing views on abortion.

I won't be around tomorrow, so I will check in on Wed or Thurs to see if there is any further discussion.

cheers

bullmarket

bullmarket · 13 February 2006

Hi visual

visual said:
Bullmarket,
I don`t want to get into an argument with you,but you are referring to infanticide,and I`m sure that you are aware that already happens.

What I am referring to is prevention,of that.(by that I mean suffering that affects many people around the life being taken)

Killing is killing.
No distinction,

By having an abortion the only people who suffer are the mother or father if he ever finds out that is.Because in the end whatever argument they put up at the time,they are the ones who have to live with the knowledge that they took a life that at the time was inconvenient .

On a personal note,many times I`ve wished the bastards who had me had aborted me,why because they already had a daughter and upon finding out I was a girl ,they simply decided they didnt want me,so you can imagine the hell my life has been.They also decided to keep me because it would`ve looked bad to give me away.Enough said.

no problem.....I to don't want to get into an argument with anyone and so I've been careful to give the reasons behind my views so others can see where I am coming from and they can then either discuss, agree, disagree or just ponder.

It looks like we agree in principle but the extent of our agreeing varies.

I hope you are at least reasonably happy with your life now after your difficult past. And I hope that your life now vindicates your parents' decision to not have aborted you if they had considered it.

Best wishes and I hope things turn out well for you.

bullmarket

ps... I won't be around tomorrow so I'll check in on Wed or Thurs to see if there is any further discussion in this thread (somehow I think there will be )

visual · 13 February 2006

Hi Bullmarket,
sorry ,I really wish I hadnt said that,I suppose we all have our own burdens and I really didnt intend to publicise mine.I was off topic.Again accept my apologies

Bobby · 13 February 2006

visual said:
Hi Bullmarket,
sorry ,I really wish I hadnt said that,I suppose we all have our own burdens and I really didnt intend to publicise mine.I was off topic.Again accept my apologies

Visual ,
You don't need to apologise to anyone , I think You may have more guts then many hard men iv'e known.

Your a good human Visual !
Look after yourself.

Regards Bob.

Julia · 13 February 2006

visual said:
Hi Bullmarket,
sorry ,I really wish I hadnt said that,I suppose we all have our own burdens and I really didnt intend to publicise mine.I was off topic.Again accept my apologies

Visual:

Don't be apologetic. I'm sure your personal comment was met with nothing other than compassion by any of us reading it.

You've made a valuable contribution to this and other threads, so it would seem that you've had the strength and courage to regard your parents' attitude as simply something to be overcome. Good for you.

All the best.

Julia

Julia · 13 February 2006

bullmarket said:
Hi Prospector

and therein lies one fundamental difference which forms the basis for our different views.

I believe the line doesn't exist because to me human life begins at conception and not further down the track. And imo that human life, even at the embrionic stage, has just as much right to life as you and I and everyone else. A lot of people use your 'line in the sand' and the reasoning behind it to justify the killing of what I believe is still a human being from conception to your line, although granted at a very early stage of physical development.

I can see what you are getting at with your reference to an unborn child being a parasite, for want of a better description, but I don't accept that as a valid argument to help determine where the 'line in the sand' is because even a new born is obviously a parasite because it cannot survive on its own. To me, an unborn child at any stage of pregnancy and a new born child are both parasites, to use your description, the only difference as I see it is the extent to which both are dependant on their mothers.

I accept that you and others with simialr views to you will use that line to help justify killing another human being and you are all entitled to take that view. All I am saying is that I don't agree with your view and line and hence that is one reason for our differing views on abortion.

I won't be around tomorrow, so I will check in on Wed or Thurs to see if there is any further discussion.

cheers

bullmarket

bullmarket:

We still don't seem to get our lines of communication clear.

In your post above you have clearly stated that you would decide (if you could) that the embryo should live. I really just don't see how this ties in with your statement that:

"I cannot support capital punishment as I do not believe anyone has the right to decide who lives or dies except in the case of where one's own life is being threatened for whatever reason".

I appreciate that the above is a statement from another thread, but don't see what difference that makes - it goes to the heart of how you feel.

You have suggested I'm being "picky". Perhaps I am. I just feel that you are contradicting yourself and you really can't have it both ways.

In reality, very little of life is as black and white as we would like it to be. Mostly we need to think more in terms of shades of grey.
It just seems to me that the pro-choice lobby has no wish to impose their views or actions on anyone else, but the anti-abortion lobby WOULD WANT TO IMPOSE THEIR VIEWS AND ACTIONS on others.

Julia

son of baglimit · 13 February 2006

julia - just to correct an error in your post -

'but the anti-abortion lobby WOULD WANT TO IMPOSE THEIR VIEWS AND ACTIONS on others'.

should in fact read

'but the anti-abortion lobby DEMAND TO IMPOSE THEIR VIEWS AND ACTIONS on others'.
AND CLAIM TO HAVE ANYBODY WHO'S ANYBODY FROM PRESENT DAY & THROUGHOUT HISTORY TO BACK THEIR CLAIM - ABSOLUTE BULL****.

bullmarket · 14 February 2006

Hi Julia

Julia said:
bullmarket:

We still don't seem to get our lines of communication clear.

In your post above you have clearly stated that you would decide (if you could) that the embryo should live. I really just don't see how this ties in with your statement that:

"I cannot support capital punishment as I do not believe anyone has the right to decide who lives or dies except in the case of where one's own life is being threatened for whatever reason".

I appreciate that the above is a statement from another thread, but don't see what difference that makes - it goes to the heart of how you feel.

You have suggested I'm being "picky". Perhaps I am. I just feel that you are contradicting yourself and you really can't have it both ways.

In reality, very little of life is as black and white as we would like it to be. Mostly we need to think more in terms of shades of grey.
It just seems to me that the pro-choice lobby has no wish to impose their views or actions on anyone else, but the anti-abortion lobby WOULD WANT TO IMPOSE THEIR VIEWS AND ACTIONS on others.

Julia

Mrs bullmarket and I arrived back home about 1/2 an hour ago and she said I can have 15 mins max to see what the market did today and do whatever I need to do on the pc so I'll have to be quick

I would have thought that from all my earlier posts in this thread and from the other thread you 'borrowed' my comment above from, that it was crystal clear that I believe human life is sacrosanct and inviolable from the moment of conception and that this belief forms the premiss for all my earlier posts in this thread and the other one.

I also believe you knew full well what I meant in the other thread and in this one. I see your attempt to extract a portion of a sentence I made in the other thread and isolate it out of context from the rest of my post and to then suggest to me I wasn't being consistent, as simply an attempt to twist what I said or deliberately misinterpret what I said to try to gain a cheap point....sorry but I'm not into mind games and so won't play.

If you are still confused on where I stand or what the premiss for my posts in this and the other thread is, then I hope this post makes it crystal clear. If it doesn't then so be it. I don't believe I have been inconsistent in anyway whatsoever, but if you choose to believe that I am then that is fine as you are entitled to believe that but it doesn't concern me at all as you are in a very small minority, from my discussions here and elsewhere, who fail to see what I have been saying and I can't make my views any clearer than I already have. Of the overwhelming majority who have understood what I have been saying I would say at a rough guess the count is about 50-50 agreeing/disagreeing with me.

Now I only have about 7 mins left before mrs bullmarket pulls the power chord from the wall socket so I better go check up on a few other things

cheers

bullmarket

visual · 14 February 2006

[QUOTENow I only have about 7 mins left before mrs bullmarket pulls the power chord from the wall socket so I better go check up on a few other things

cheers

bullmarket[/QUOTE]

Bullmarket,thanks for that it really brought a smile to my face,well no actually i`m laughing,
Hi mrs.Bullmarket.

wayneL · 14 February 2006

bullmarket said:
Now I only have about 7 mins left before mrs bullmarket pulls the power chord from the wall socket so I better go check up on a few other things

**smiles knowingly.

:twak:

Julia · 14 February 2006

bullmarket said:
Hi Julia

Mrs bullmarket and I arrived back home about 1/2 an hour ago and she said I can have 15 mins max to see what the market did today and do whatever I need to do on the pc so I'll have to be quick

I would have thought that from all my earlier posts in this thread and from the other thread you 'borrowed' my comment above from, that it was crystal clear that I believe human life is sacrosanct and inviolable from the moment of conception and that this belief forms the premiss for all my earlier posts in this thread and the other one.

I also believe you knew full well what I meant in the other thread and in this one. I see your attempt to extract a portion of a sentence I made in the other thread and isolate it out of context from the rest of my post and to then suggest to me I wasn't being consistent, as simply an attempt to twist what I said or deliberately misinterpret what I said to try to gain a cheap point....sorry but I'm not into mind games and so won't play.

If you are still confused on where I stand or what the premiss for my posts in this and the other thread is, then I hope this post makes it crystal clear. If it doesn't then so be it. I don't believe I have been inconsistent in anyway whatsoever, but if you choose to believe that I am then that is fine as you are entitled to believe that but it doesn't concern me at all as you are in a very small minority, from my discussions here and elsewhere, who fail to see what I have been saying and I can't make my views any clearer than I already have. Of the overwhelming majority who have understood what I have been saying I would say at a rough guess the count is about 50-50 agreeing/disagreeing with me.

Now I only have about 7 mins left before mrs bullmarket pulls the power chord from the wall socket so I better go check up on a few other things

cheers

bullmarket

OK. I give up. I simply accept that in one context(i.e. unwanted pregnancy)
you would like to be able to say who lives , and in another context (death penalty) you say that no one, including presumably yourself, should be able to say who lives and who dies.

I've just run out of energy in the face of all your volume of words, bullmarket.

My passionate defence of the right of a woman to decide whether or not she takes a pregnancy to term and has the baby originated from a relative of mine, many years ago. She was aged 15 at the time and found herself pregnant as a result of being raped. Her parents, both devout Catholics,
offered her no comfort and completely rejected her. She solved the problem by drinking hydrochloric acid. I can't begin to imagine what her death would have been like.

I just hope that no one you love ever has the misfortune to find herself with an unwanted pregnancy as it wouldn't seem she could expect any compassion from you.

I truly have nothing more to say in opposition to your comments, bullmarket.
My attempts, and those of others, to try to persuade you to allow for some consideration of individual circumstances have met with rigid opposition and I will reserve my efforts for situations where they may have a chance of being heard with an open mind.

Julia

ghotib · 15 February 2006

Dear Julia,

Such agonised memories from this thread. Thanks to you and to those people who've talked about the real emotions that go into the personal decisions about unplanned pregnancy and abortion. I guess it's hard for people who don't remember the days when abortion was illegal and unsafe to understand how appalling they were and what a return to them would mean.

Love to you,

Ghoti

son of baglimit · 18 February 2006

attention tony abbott :

if i could find a picture of a hand with the middle finger extended and all the others closed, symbolising what i think of you, i would put it here.

a thankyou to those pollies who supported the idea of assisting those families ever burdened with the prospect of bringing up a severley disabled child and realising the severe cost it has on family life.

here endith the lesson.

bullmarket · 18 February 2006

Hi son of baglimit

Somehow I doubt Tony Abbot visits this forum so I doubt he'll see your cowardly attempt to personally attack him while you're cowering behind a supposed anonymous alias

However, I do feel that he has over-personalised his views in the debate but he's entitled to his opinions regardless of what they are based on.

If you want to be taken seriously why not send him a letter, with an optional photo of your middle digit extended if you like (I can lend you a digital camera if you like ), put your real life contact details on it and sign it. I believe you don't have the courage to send him a letter with your contact details on it

Imo, people who personally attack others like you have while hiding behind their mum's apron (a chatroom nic) portray themselves to me as immature cowards.

Good luck in your endeavours

bullmarket

Julia · 18 February 2006

bullmarket

I support absolutely the comments made by Son of Baglimit. It is Abbott himself who made the issue personal and about himself.

How can you possibly say that Son of Baglimit would not have the "courage" to send a letter to Tony Abbott including his full name and address etc?
That is very presumptuous on your part. Because someone doesn't state his full name on an anonymous forum where we mostly use nics, is no reason to draw such a conclusion.

Julia

retroaugogo · 18 February 2006

Julia said:
I support absolutely the comments made by Son of Baglimit. It is Abbott himself who made the issue personal and about himself.

Julia

And you haven't pushed your views down peoples throats?

The humanists think that their philosophy isn't a fully fledged set of beliefs.

humanism
noun

1. A system of thought which rejects the supernatural, any belief in a god, etc, but holds that human interests and the human mind are paramount, that humans are capable of solving the problems of the world and deciding what is or is not correct moral behaviour.
2. A cultural movement of the Renaissance period which promoted classical studies.

dutchie · 18 February 2006

Bullmarket

Sometimes parliamentary privilege is abused and is cowardly.

Cheers

Dutchie

bullmarket · 18 February 2006

Hi Julia, retro

no problem....I just call things as I see them and I have given my reasons to support them.

so far I have not seen any verifiable information at all showing my perception of sob is wrong in any way whatsoever so I will continue to exercise my 100% right to maintain my views and express them.

retro: I don't believe I have shoved my views down peoples' throats at all. I have always maintained and posted that my views are food for thought. I have vigouresly posted my views with their supporting arguments just as those did that had opposing views to me. I don't see anything wrong with that at all But if you choose to see me as having force fed my views at all then so be it as it is of no consequence to me as I don't believe I expressed my views any more forcefully than those that expressed opposing views did to me....it's as simple as that We are in a democracy and so the majority view usually wins out which is the way it should be.

Have a good weekend everyone

bullmarket

RU486 - so called "abortion pill"

Smurf1976

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VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

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