RU486 - so called "abortion pill"
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Sorry for the off topic but I think it's appropriate to respond...Prospector said:Re the raising of children being a lifelong consideration - my 21 year old threatens to stay at home until he is at least 30!
With the lack of job security and the housing affordability crisis, many "young" people have no choice but to stay home until 30 or even older. Oh how lucky this generation is to have to work literally twice as long to buy a house as their parents did.
Just something to ponder since it wasn't 21 year olds who made the decisions which lead to this but rather their parents and grandparents. I think the concept of intergenerational equity will be a rather big issue in the future. Not just finances but resources, environment, worker's rights and a range of other issues. Interesting times ahead...
ghotib
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Well Bullmarket, To me denying women the option of legal, safe abortion is no different from forcing them to abandon babies on doorsteps or send their children onto the streets to beg.bullmarket said:
To me, it is grossly irresponsible to force women to carry every pregnancy to full term while not even taking the trouble to find out how they might care for the children, let alone ensuring that they can.
Ghoti
Prospector
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And sadly Bullmarket, the mother of a severely disabled child did just that - killed the child because she could no longer care for it (I believe it was congenital disability) and there was very little financial or emotional support for her in the community because, lets face it, carers of disabled people have very little voting power. She simply couldnt do it anymore. She was at the end of her rope. Of course she faced a murder trial but most people considered it to be a very sad and tragic situation for all concerned.
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To be quite truthful, I'm not interested one way or another if a woman decides to abort or conceive her baby. I've seen plenty who declared they'd never have an abortion and the next thing they're having one. Same goes for women who have strongly expressed their view on how rational it is to have an abortion and they change their mind at the doorstep.
What bothers me is the effect on any woman lacking in experience who had previously admired and sought advice from and listened to these types of women previous to them having their own personal experience. Btw - none were teenagers.
The absolute worst thing anyone can do is betray themselves by putting the thoughts and feeling of others before their own. Get to know yourself, listen to yourself and your own truth. After all you have to wake up with yourself everyday of your life so make sure you are your own best friend and of one mind.
The majority of women would still be being compelled to adopt out their babies because of what the town might think if it hadn't been for those brave souls who by their actions said, 'bugger it, I'm keeping my baby and I'll find a way'
Yes RU486 gives you a choice just make sure its your own. I note that the first thing most young blokes say when their girlfriends inform them they are pregnant is "why don't you get an abortion"
Cheers
Happytrader
What bothers me is the effect on any woman lacking in experience who had previously admired and sought advice from and listened to these types of women previous to them having their own personal experience. Btw - none were teenagers.
The absolute worst thing anyone can do is betray themselves by putting the thoughts and feeling of others before their own. Get to know yourself, listen to yourself and your own truth. After all you have to wake up with yourself everyday of your life so make sure you are your own best friend and of one mind.
The majority of women would still be being compelled to adopt out their babies because of what the town might think if it hadn't been for those brave souls who by their actions said, 'bugger it, I'm keeping my baby and I'll find a way'
Yes RU486 gives you a choice just make sure its your own. I note that the first thing most young blokes say when their girlfriends inform them they are pregnant is "why don't you get an abortion"
Cheers
Happytrader
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Hi Ghotib
Yes looks like this thread is starting to chase its own tail now (as I suggested in my prevuous post) as your above point or ones very similar to it have already been expressed in earlier posts in this thread.
I disagreed with it and I gave my reasons why in my earlier posts. I won't be copying and pasting my earlier replies anymore for the risk of potentially being accused of trying to impose my views on others.
If anyone is interested in my views it would only take about a minute to search this thread for my posts using the search tool.
Having said that, I'm now stating to wonder if those starting to repeat views already expressed or repeatedly asking the same or similar questions are in fact trying to impose their views on me and/or on those who have similar views to me? I hope not....
If someone raises a new point or expresses a view that hasn't been already expressed before in this thread then I will respond if asked otherwise feel free to search my posts.
cheers
bullmarket
ghotib said:
Yes looks like this thread is starting to chase its own tail now (as I suggested in my prevuous post) as your above point or ones very similar to it have already been expressed in earlier posts in this thread.
I disagreed with it and I gave my reasons why in my earlier posts. I won't be copying and pasting my earlier replies anymore for the risk of potentially being accused of trying to impose my views on others.
If anyone is interested in my views it would only take about a minute to search this thread for my posts using the search tool.
Having said that, I'm now stating to wonder if those starting to repeat views already expressed or repeatedly asking the same or similar questions are in fact trying to impose their views on me and/or on those who have similar views to me?
I hope not....If someone raises a new point or expresses a view that hasn't been already expressed before in this thread then I will respond if asked otherwise feel free to search my posts.
cheers
bullmarket
ghotib
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Hi Bullmarket,
Cheers.
Ghoti
Imposing views isn't the problem; the problem is imposing behaviour. Women who share your views about abortion cannot force men who share mine to carry a child to term. If your views lead you to actively support people who care for children (eg through tax deductible childcare) and to support sex education and readily available contraception, then we can agree to disagree, though I reserve the right to protest the accusation of cold-blooded murder.bullmarket said:Having said that, I'm now stating to wonder if those starting to repeat views already expressed or repeatedly asking the same or similar questions are in fact trying to impose their views on me and/or on those who have similar views to me?
If someone raises a new point or expresses a view that hasn't been already expressed before in this thread then I will respond if asked otherwise feel free to search my posts.
cheers
bullmarket
Cheers.
Ghoti
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Just a point that seems to be missing here. Safe and legal abortion has been available to both single and married women in NZ and Australia for nearly 20 years that I know of. The legal umbrella ensures that basically anyone qualifies for an abortion. RU486 is just another avenue.
Cheers
Happytrader
Cheers
Happytrader
on another thread someone older,his words,
posted that nizar should drop the sms way of putting words because he found it hard to translate , so i thought it was funny to see a cartoon in the herald sun asking
r u 4 8 6
i`ve put 6 down as sex what does 8 stand for though the others are self explanatory.
I know its not a funny subject but like bullmarket said its now going round and round so i though i1d through that in,apologies for those who dont find this amusing.
posted that nizar should drop the sms way of putting words because he found it hard to translate , so i thought it was funny to see a cartoon in the herald sun asking
r u 4 8 6
i`ve put 6 down as sex what does 8 stand for though the others are self explanatory.
I know its not a funny subject but like bullmarket said its now going round and round so i though i1d through that in,apologies for those who dont find this amusing.
Prospector
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visual said:on another thread someone older,his words,
posted that nizar should drop the sms way of putting words because he found it hard to translate , so i thought it was funny to see a cartoon in the herald sun asking
r u 4 8 6
I know its not a funny subject but like bullmarket said its now going round and round so i though i1d through that in,apologies for those who dont find this amusing.
Actually, twas me who asked him not to 'sms' because being of the older generation, I spend too much time trying to work out what was written, let alone grasp the meaning. And 'he' is a 'she'
Julia
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Prospector said:Re the raising of children being a lifelong consideration - my 21 year old threatens to stay at home until he is at least 30!
Hi Prospector:
Perhaps you could turn the resident 21 year old into a selling feature?
With some creative marketing, it could be the clincher for a prospective purchaser who has a similarly aged daughter?
Maybe I shouldn't be seeking a career in real estate.
Julia
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I wonder if RU486 was around in our grandparents time, how many 'currently alive' people in this forum would even be able to respond to this post
Not that the topic of abortion should ever be considered lightly, however I also wonder how many people have turned to abortion as a short term gain <quick fix to a problem, even perhaps simply convenience>, but now have life long pain because of the decision.
Not that the topic of abortion should ever be considered lightly, however I also wonder how many people have turned to abortion as a short term gain <quick fix to a problem, even perhaps simply convenience>, but now have life long pain because of the decision.
weird,
thats the point pro abortionists are making ,abortions were around in your grandparents time,except they were called backyard obstretitians,hence the prolobby argument for legal abortions and now the ru486 pill.
The real question should be,why cloud the taking of a life with ignorance,re-its not really a life because the baby is not born yet ect...I`m sure that in those uneducated times people knew that an abortion was the destruction of life for whatever reason they chose to have one.Be it lack of money ,or for social reasons or whatever.
These days unfortunately,althought we`re better educated that distinction is being obfuscated with too much knowledge/education
I have never being for abortion but if a life has to be brought in this world just to suffer,eg by being unwanted for whatever reason then go ahead and spare the poor unwanted life the pain that he she would surely suffer.
thats the point pro abortionists are making ,abortions were around in your grandparents time,except they were called backyard obstretitians,hence the prolobby argument for legal abortions and now the ru486 pill.
The real question should be,why cloud the taking of a life with ignorance,re-its not really a life because the baby is not born yet ect...I`m sure that in those uneducated times people knew that an abortion was the destruction of life for whatever reason they chose to have one.Be it lack of money ,or for social reasons or whatever.
These days unfortunately,althought we`re better educated that distinction is being obfuscated with too much knowledge/education
I have never being for abortion but if a life has to be brought in this world just to suffer,eg by being unwanted for whatever reason then go ahead and spare the poor unwanted life the pain that he she would surely suffer.
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Hi visual
But to me your logic is flawed because if you are to be consistent in that view then that implies that you would support the killing of a 5 year old who suddenly became handicapped/disabled or whatever and then became "too hard" to look after by the mother.
I don't think for a second that you would support the killing of a 5 year old that has suddenly become handicapped and "too hard" to look after, but then where do you and people like Julia draw the line on the stage of physical development where you feel it would be justified to kill an unborn handicapped child. I don't believe that line exists. Surely the gov't, community support that would be available to that handicapped 5 year old would also be available to the handicapped child from the moment it was born.
To me it all boils down to pro-abortionists imo wrongly believing that an unborn child, even at the embrionic stage, is some how less of a human being than you or I and so for some reason has a lesser right to life than you or I or the 5 year old that has become "too hard" to look after for whatever reason.
bullmarket
visual said:I have never being for abortion but if a life has to be brought in this world just to suffer,eg by being unwanted for whatever reason then go ahead and spare the poor unwanted life the pain that he she would surely suffer.
But to me your logic is flawed because if you are to be consistent in that view then that implies that you would support the killing of a 5 year old who suddenly became handicapped/disabled or whatever and then became "too hard" to look after by the mother.
I don't think for a second that you would support the killing of a 5 year old that has suddenly become handicapped and "too hard" to look after, but then where do you and people like Julia draw the line on the stage of physical development where you feel it would be justified to kill an unborn handicapped child. I don't believe that line exists. Surely the gov't, community support that would be available to that handicapped 5 year old would also be available to the handicapped child from the moment it was born.
To me it all boils down to pro-abortionists imo wrongly believing that an unborn child, even at the embrionic stage, is some how less of a human being than you or I and so for some reason has a lesser right to life than you or I or the 5 year old that has become "too hard" to look after for whatever reason.
bullmarket
Bullmarket,
I don`t want to get into an argument with you,but you are referring to infanticide,and I`m sure that you are aware that already happens.
What I am referring to is prevention,of that.(by that I mean suffering that affects many people around the life being taken)
Killing is killing.
No distinction,
By having an abortion the only people who suffer are the mother or father if he ever finds out that is.Because in the end whatever argument they put up at the time,they are the ones who have to live with the knowledge that they took a life that at the time was inconvenient .
On a personal note,many times I`ve wished the bastards who had me had aborted me,why because they already had a daughter and upon finding out I was a girl ,they simply decided they didnt want me,so you can imagine the hell my life has been.They also decided to keep me because it would`ve looked bad to give me away.Enough said.
I don`t want to get into an argument with you,but you are referring to infanticide,and I`m sure that you are aware that already happens.
What I am referring to is prevention,of that.(by that I mean suffering that affects many people around the life being taken)
Killing is killing.
No distinction,
By having an abortion the only people who suffer are the mother or father if he ever finds out that is.Because in the end whatever argument they put up at the time,they are the ones who have to live with the knowledge that they took a life that at the time was inconvenient .
On a personal note,many times I`ve wished the bastards who had me had aborted me,why because they already had a daughter and upon finding out I was a girl ,they simply decided they didnt want me,so you can imagine the hell my life has been.They also decided to keep me because it would`ve looked bad to give me away.Enough said.
Prospector
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bullmarket said:I don't think for a second that you would support the killing of a 5 year old that has suddenly become handicapped and "too hard" to look after, but then where do you and people like Julia draw the line on the stage of physical development where you feel it would be justified to kill an unborn handicapped child. I don't believe that line exists.
bullmarket
But that line does exist Bullmarket! It is the time at which a fetus can survive if it is born. And that is about 26 - 28 weeks, where it is viable for a fetus to draw breath on its own! Before then, it can't - it is almost a parasite if you like because it cannot survive without its 'host' - the mother.
I am totally against abortions after 24 weeks, because the infant could, potentially, with lots of life support though, exist. However, before that time, I dont consider that the fetus is viable on its own. And that, not coincidentally, is the time when abortions cant legally be performed.
Prospector
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visual said:
I am so sorry to hear this visual, you deserve so much more than this.
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Hi,
Interesting comments, My view is that as abortion is legal the only consideration should be if this pill is safe and only the medical profession should evaluate this not a minister etc.
As to whether abortion should be legal is a different matter. Every child should be a loved and wanted child and if either of the parents cannot give this love and care then to me it is better for the mother to have an abortion.
I also think that your opinions change as to your age and sex, when you are young and could be faced with the reality of supporting a child for 20 years without support and little income, you can put yourself in that position and have sympathy for it
When you are older and can just think about the moral issues from your comfy armchair with money in the bank and a house paid for it's easy to say that abortion should not take place.
I have been in both situations a lot of older biased men haven't.
B.
Interesting comments, My view is that as abortion is legal the only consideration should be if this pill is safe and only the medical profession should evaluate this not a minister etc.
As to whether abortion should be legal is a different matter. Every child should be a loved and wanted child and if either of the parents cannot give this love and care then to me it is better for the mother to have an abortion.
I also think that your opinions change as to your age and sex, when you are young and could be faced with the reality of supporting a child for 20 years without support and little income, you can put yourself in that position and have sympathy for it
When you are older and can just think about the moral issues from your comfy armchair with money in the bank and a house paid for it's easy to say that abortion should not take place.
I have been in both situations a lot of older biased men haven't.
B.
