wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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I enjoyed your read.
The 3 things you have highlighted are all proven and not disputed.
Anthropogenic climate change is yet to be determined.To conclude there are more scientists now becoming skeptic about the evidence.A trend that should be monitored.
Greenland has been the focal point on climate change.
"From 986 AD, Greenland's west coast was colonised by Icelanders and Norwegians in two settlements on fjords near the southwestern-most tip of the island.[6] They shared the island with the late Dorset culture inhabitants who occupied the northern and eastern parts, and later with the Thule culture arriving from the north. The settlements, such as Brattahlið, thrived for centuries but disappeared some time in the 15th century, perhaps at the onset of the Little Ice Age.[7] Interpretation of ice core data suggests that between 800 and 1300 AD the regions around the fjords of southern Greenland experienced a mild climate, with trees and herbaceous plants growing and livestock being farmed. What is verifiable is that the ice cores indicate Greenland has experienced dramatic temperature shifts many times over the past 100,000 years — which makes it possible to say that areas of Greenland may have been much warmer during the medieval period than they are now and that the ice sheet contracted significantly."
Its a shame the professor Corrinne le Querre and her 31 disciples cant work out WTF happened here and perhaps correlated whats happening today rather than jumping to conclusions.
There have also been regional changes such as the 'Medieval Warning Period', when land less sea ice and larger areas of cultivated land were reported in Iceland. However, in contrast to these climate phases, the increase of three quarters of a degree centigrade (0.74 deg C) in average global temperatures that we have seen over the last century is larger than can be accounted for my natural factors alone.
Perhaps I was too subtle with the 3 thought experiments I outlined.I enjoyed your read.
The 3 things you have highlighted are all proven and not disputed.
Yes, along with natural CC. But the human induced factors are different to the main scare of GW1) Has anthropological climate change occurred?
Pathetic.2) How accurate are the models that show how ongoing anthropological CC might impact the global climate over the coming century? Particularly with respect to CO2 emissions?
Lots.3) What (if anything) should we be doing about it? Either globally? Or nationally?
I enjoyed your read.
The 3 things you have highlighted are all proven and not disputed.
Anthropogenic climate change is yet to be determined.To conclude there are more scientists now becoming skeptic about the evidence.A trend that should be monitored.
Not quite...sorry it's now Climate Change since the Globe is actually cooling
Not quite...
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/cdrar/do_LTmapE.py
In the interest of full disclosure, the full discourse is below.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/
Basilio, I've found some of your previous posts to be reasonably objective but I simply can't see that the above provide a logical analogy to the current debate.Perhaps I was too subtle with the 3 thought experiments I outlined.
a) Disregarding a legitimate hurricane warning in Australia is just totally foolish because we are confident enough in the science to know there will be a big blow on the way and that we need to make preparations. The fact that the sky is still blue now is immaterial to our decision to take decisive action in anticipation of a highly probable event.
b) It isn't necessarily the case that everyone realises that when the sea recedes quickly that a tidal wave is coming. I can remember observations made before the last Tsunami about people who did go out to pick up fish and look at emerging wrecks. But if you have the certain understanding of what is happening you would quickly realise the need to get the hell out of there.
c) With regard to sending off an overladen ship in the 1840's. It happened, and happened and happened practically as I outlined it. It didn't take rocket science to work out that an overladen ship would sink at the first sniff of a gale. But many owners were happy to insure their ships to the hilt, send them out and watch them sink. Pure legal murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Plimsoll
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/jun/25/biography.features
This was finally legally stopped when the Plimsoll line legislation was passed in 1876. It had a lot of trouble passing Parliament because there were many shipowners in the British Parliament who had made serious money sending out coffin ships.
You didn't have to be a genius to work out how dangerous accepted sailing practices were. There was plenty of objective evidence. But getting this legalised murder stopped against the financial interests of the shipowners was probably as hard as persuading fossil fuel companies and our broader society that unlimited CO2 emissions are irrevocably changing our climate.
31,700... How about a link to where you got this amazing fact.?31,700 Scientist from around the world have clearly stated any climate change is created by variations in the intensity of the Sun. Changes that have taken place for millions of years.
Basilio, I've found some of your previous posts to be reasonably objective but I simply can't see that the above provide a logical analogy to the current debate
Why is there such desperation for Australia to have an ETS legislated prior to Copenhagen? Why does it not make more sense for everyone attending to reach some agreement about what (if anything) needs to be done on a global basis? After all it's apparently a global problem.
Do you not consider the current desperate urgency being displayed by the government may be more about Mr Rudd's passion for drawing attention to himself on the world stage by being able to say "We in Australia have already legislated, blah, blah, blah"?
And a further question: do you concede that an ETS - particularly one which is apparently so deeply flawed as this one which has even earned the condemnation of the government's own climate expert, Ross Garnaut - will almost certainly have a highly negative impact on our economy, possibly causing businesses to move offshore with their emissions, and put a great strain on the many Australians who are already attempting to exist at or below the poverty line?
Imo a good deal of the reason the 'climate agnostics' become so irritated with the devotees is the apparent lack of consideration they give to anything other than just the physical environment.
The above paragraph is confused.The climate change skeptics seem to laugh at the 'hystericals' (certainly a very unfair and extremely hypocritical label - neither side has the evidence to call the other stupid) and vice versa. Something which strikes me as very strange is that the skeptics seem to think that since humans are not causing climate change, we are all going to be okay, while the other side thinks that if reversing the human influence will solve all our problems...
Both sides seem to be making a fundamental mistake - they both assume that the only potential for climate problems is human influence.
Regardless of whether it is caused by humans, solar activity, natural terran cycles, alien or divine intervention, significant climate change is going to happen, and it will severely screw us. The answer is not necessarily either reversing human impacts or discounting them and kicking back to enjoy ourselves. We need to accept that climate change is inevitable, and we need to prepare for it.
If none of us had ever seen a tidal wave, and we had a magical opportunity to grab fish and explore reefs, we would all probably take it. Modern civilisation has not yet seen significant climate change events, and the first major one of modern history is going to really catch most of the world by surprise. Humans are like that, we never learn our lessons the easy way.
There is a high probability of this. To what degree is total supposition.Humans will adapt to changing climate patterns.
This is only your opinion. Pielke has no more an idea of the full mechanisms in play that any other scientist. His research like all others is probability based. His theories simply sit better with your own views. Your choice of language like "holistic" & "reasonable" betrays this fact, you can't have it both ways.Yet they studiously ignore the likes of Pielke(s) et al who have a more realistic, balanced and more holistic view of the available science from which more workable solutions may be developed.
Agreed.The alarmist's views are just as laughable as the people who deny climate ever changes, human influence or not. In actual fact, there are very few of those and many of them are merely taking extreme views to counterbalance the alarmists... classic attitude polarization.
Agreed.But we must stop trashing the planet, that is for sure.
Yes but to what degree is uncertain. As stated above, NO ONE fully understands the science of climate.Humans will adapt to changing climate patterns.
Once again this is only an opinion. Please stop saying this as if you know the answers. You DO NOT know this to be fact, any more than those in the scientific community who practice good research, who are honest & state only known facts. You DO NOT know better than ANYONE else what is true.This is the BIG issue, not the amount of co2 being emitted.
Agreed to point, this is as much a blanket statement, as full of bias as any.The only thing that is not funny is that the alarmists inhabit (infest) journalism and government and therefore twist and skew the information available to the public.
As stated above NO ONE fully knows where or if or at what point, there might or might not be "sudden" climate change. Define sudden. Please stop making blanket statements that are just as wrong as the alarmists ones.Sudden climate change will only come at the hands of a loons with red buttons or something like Yellowstone or Taupo blowing up.
Perhaps, but Pielke et al do take all the science to form those opinions, rather than cherrypicking data. This means he is likely to be less biased. Actually, Pielke made me change my views, they didn't sit so well at first. I chose his position as the most likely because of his lack of bias and did not exclude any science.This is only your opinion. Pielke has no more an idea of the full mechanisms in play that any other scientist. His research like all others is probability based. His theories simply sit better with your own views. Your choice of language like "holistic" & "reasonable" betrays this fact, you can't have it both ways.
I'll stop so long as everybody else does. While they state their pet views as fact, so will I. We all know it is just opinion.Once again this is only an opinion. Please stop saying this as if you know the answers. You DO NOT know this to be fact, any more than those in the scientific community who practice good research, who are honest & state only known facts. You DO NOT know better than ANYONE else what is true.
No, it is a demonstrable realityAgreed to point, this is as much a blanket statement, as full of bias as any.
If you show me an incidence of sudden global climate change without some precipitous intervening event, I'll accept your statement. Until then I stand by mine.As stated above NO ONE fully knows where or if or at what point, there might or might not be "sudden" climate change. Define sudden. Please stop making blanket statements that are just as wrong as the alarmists ones.
Wrong. They are not even theories, they are hypotheses. If the one thing that could be achieved through all the bluster, bs, grandstanding, scare tactics and debate, is the simple fact of your statement that nobody knows what the ~~~~ is going on.Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, you are being as biased in your methodology in putting them forward as everyone else, by putting them forward as facts. They are unproven theories, nothing more nothing less.
Isn't amazing what scientist can do on computers these days to satisfy their masters who pay them to come up with the answers they want to hear.
Penny Wong has produced similar models only to be proved wrong, time and time again. However, she still persists with her hysteria that we are all going to get swamped with sea water or burn to death if we don't stop Global Warming or Climate Change which ever suits the circumstances. Even our fearless leader has pressed the panic button with his recent outburst of cowards etc.etc.
31,700 Scientist from around the world have clearly stated any climate change is created by variations in the intensity of the Sun. Changes that have taken place for millions of years.
The Alarmists are becoming terrified at the momentun of the number of Sceptics of Global Warming, hence their hysteria in coming up with so called new evidence. The heat wave in the Southern states is typical. I can hear the champagne corks popping up hear in Townsille, the Alarmist just love it, the heat wave that is, and probably the bubbly as well.
Misleading Argument # 6: It’s all to do with the Sun - for example, there is a strong link between increased temperatures on Earth and the number of sunspots on the Sun.
What does the science say?
Change in solar activity is one of the many factors that influence the climate but cannot, on its own, account for all the changes in global average temperature we have seen in the 20th Century.
Changes in the Sun’s activity influence the Earth’s climate through small but significant variations in its intensity. When it is in a more ‘active’ phase – as indicated by a greater number of sunspots on its surface – it emits more light and heat. While there is evidence of a link between solar activity and some of the warming in the early 20th Century, measurements from satellites show that there has been very little change in underlying solar activity in the last 30 years – there is even evidence of a detectable decline – and so this cannot account for the recent rises we have seen in global temperatures.
The magnitude and pattern of changes to temperatures can only be understood by taking all of the relevant factors – both natural and human – into account. For example, major volcanic eruptions produce a cooling effect because they blast ash and other particles into the atmosphere where they persist for a few years and reduce the amount of the Sun’s energy that reaches the Earth’s surface. Also, burning fossil fuels produces particles called sulphate aerosols which tend to cool the climate in the same way.
Over the first part of the 20th Century higher levels of solar activity combined with increases in human generated carbon dioxide to raise temperatures. Between 1940 and 1970 the carbon dioxide effect was probably offset by increasing amounts of sulphate aerosols in the atmosphere, and a slight downturn in solar activity, as well as enhanced
volcanic activity.
During this period global temperatures dropped. However, in the latter part of the 20th Century temperatures rose well above the levels of the 1940s. Strong measures taken to reduce sulphate pollution in some regions of the world meant that industrial aerosols began to provide less compensation for an increasing warming caused by carbon dioxide. The rising temperature during this period has been partly abated by occasional volcanic eruptions.
Our choice of reading on the climate change argument, usually depends on whether we are alarmists or sceptics.
No you got that the wrong way round.
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