Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

Not at all, the purpose was to demonstrate that religions do good work, so they aren't all evil. These are the points that one eyed anti religious freaks ignore because of their hatred for religion. It doesn't make them fair minded.

My position has always been that religion does have positive effects, however none of them rely on religion, all the positives can be achieved in other ways, avoiding the evils of religion.

You can just do charity, you don't need to do it in the name of religion.

You kind of summed it up before, no one is saying Nazism is good because they provided some good highways or pulled the country out of depression. We understand that the good things could have happened without Nazism, and none of the good things outweigh the bad side effects.

 

[SirRumpole]

You can just do charity, you don't need to do it in the name of religion.

You can just do charity, and many do, the point of doing it "in the name of something", whether it be a religion or any other sort of group is that it encourages a larger participation and being a member of something bigger than themselves, and results in a larger overall effort.

Whether it's religion or "Band Aid", a group approach is better than individuals without an organisation behind them.

 

[Value Collector]

You can just do charity, and many do, the point of doing it "in the name of something", whether it be a religion or any other sort of group is that it encourages a larger participation and being a member of something bigger than themselves, and results in a larger overall effort.

Whether it's religion or "Band Aid", a group approach is better than individuals without an organisation behind them.

Studies have shown that religious based charities are some of the least effective, eg. if you donate $1 to your church often less than 20cents makes it to actually charity work, other secular organisations can be as high as 95cents.

Not to mention the stupid examples of religious "charities" using their allotment of space on the limited transport to disaster areas to send bibles and preachers.

I read one example where a charity trying to shipped, tents, chainsaws and other equipment to an earthquake zone, had to leave stuff behind because room was taken up by a crate of bibles

 

[FxTrader]

Ok, so when I see the "Atheist Army" out on the streets feeding the poor, then maybe I'll believe that religion serves no good purpose.

Of course there is no "Atheist Army" (a scornful phrase that demonstrates once again your disdain for non-belief) but we have many examples of religious ones over human history and they did not specialize in feeding the poor. Once again you ply the murky waters of praising religion for its usefulness rather than focus on the many dangers evident in embracing religion and the mythology around it for this purpose.

Religion is not inherently good because it's useful in controlling or influencing behaviour in some positive way. Conversely, religion is not inherently evil solely because Catholic priests have raped thousands of children or ISIS is beheading people in the name of Islam. Religion is a fraud masquerading as revealed truth and should not be praised for its ability motivate people to do good or condemned solely for doing the opposite.

And if I said "Hitler built some good motorways in Germany" would that make me an apologist for Naziism ?

A plainly ridiculous analogy that deserves no response.

 

[Julia]

What a silly comment to say, Julia, because I agreed with Rumpole.

On the contrary. You only ever agree with anyone who makes a comment supportive of religion.

You lack any objectivity about religion. It means a lot in your life, so you're unprepared to acknowledge the harm and hypocrisy that surrounds it.

 

[Tink]

Yes, it is a part of my life, but I am not going to sit back and watch people get attacked for being a believer, or making a comment.

I have seen too many members leave for that very reason.

 

[Calliope]

Yes, it is a part of my life, but I am not going to sit back and watch people get attacked for being a believer, or making a comment.

I have seen too many members leave for that very reason.

I for one believe you are a decent caring person, and your religion has played a big role in making you that person.

 

[Ruby]

Yes, it is a part of my life, but I am not going to sit back and watch people get attacked for being a believer, or making a comment.

I have seen too many members leave for that very reason.

But Tink, YOU attack people for being non-believers.

 

[Tink]

Thanks, Calliope

Ruby, that isn't what Julia is saying.
Maybe you should read what she wrote, that I only defend believers.

 

[Julia]

your religion has played a big role in making you that person.

Of course. As long as that religion is Christian. I wonder if you'd feel so positively disposed if Tink were Muslim, burqa and all. Or if she suddenly developed sympathy for gay marriage.

However, I completely agree that religion has played a big role in making Tink (and others) what they are.

 

[Calliope]

Of course. As long as that religion is Christian. I wonder if you'd feel so positively disposed if Tink were Muslim, burqa and all. Or if she suddenly developed sympathy for gay marriage.

Obviously you object to me being supportive of Tink. I can't fathom why that should concern you.:dunno:

 

[Value Collector]

Obviously you object to me being supportive of Tink. I can't fathom why that should concern you.:dunno:

I think Julia was making a reference to the contrast between your glowing reviews for people and things related to Christianity, as opposed to your borderline xenophobic opinions on things related to Islam.

eg, you state that Tink is a decent and caring person and you give her religion credit for that, However If Tink acted and spoke in exactly the same way, but she wore a Burqa, you would not have the same glowing review of her.

 

[SirRumpole]

eg, you state that Tink is a decent and caring person and you give her religion credit for that, However If Tink acted and spoke in exactly the same way, but she wore a Burqa, you would not have the same glowing review of her.

It seems that we don't have many (if any) people on this forum who identify themselves as Muslim, so we really can't make a judgement of what effect their religion has on them as reflected in their comments.

Perhaps the strident anti Islamic/anti religion attitude of some posters drives them off, which is unfortunate. It would be good to hear a different viewpoint occasionally.

 

[Calliope]

I think Julia was making a reference to the contrast between your glowing reviews for people and things related to Christianity, as opposed to your borderline xenophobic opinions on things related to Islam.

eg, you state that Tink is a decent and caring person and you give her religion credit for that, However If Tink acted and spoke in exactly the same way, but she wore a Burqa, you would not have the same glowing review of her.

More hyperbole. What "glowing reviews"? However I make no apology for being supportive of Tink or anyone else being hassled by the pack mentality. I have no objection to your "glowing reviews" of, or your support for Islamic values or your anti-Christian stance.

I am an atheist, but I was raised according to Christian values, so I make no apology for preferring Christain values to alien Islamic values.

 

[Julia]

I think Julia was making a reference to the contrast between your glowing reviews for people and things related to Christianity, as opposed to your borderline xenophobic opinions on things related to Islam.

eg, you state that Tink is a decent and caring person and you give her religion credit for that, However If Tink acted and spoke in exactly the same way, but she wore a Burqa, you would not have the same glowing review of her.

Your interpretation is correct, VC. It's the disconnect, plus the stance of atheism yet painting someone as 'good and caring' because of religion, which goes to the essence of the discussion.

I do not mean the comment to suggest that Tink is not a nice, caring person, etc etc. I have no idea. Just the notion that any good quality is attributable to religion, especially coming from an atheist, seems hypocritical.

 

[Value Collector]

I have no objection to your "glowing reviews" of, or your support for Islamic values.

I think you would have trouble finding any comments where I have had a glowing review or supported Islamic values, I think you will find that I believe pretty much all religions are Immoral.

the closest I have come to giving any praise to Islam, is on there early adoption of humane treatment of animals, that's it, nothing else.

You thought I was an Islamic apologist because I corrected some one when they said Muslims didn't make as big a contribution as Australia to help in the world wars, that's not praising them, that's just stating a fact, I have no problem bashing Islam, I just want to do it based on facts, not xenophobia or misinformation.

Also you thought I was Muslim because you mistook sleeping beauties castle in my avatar for a mosque.

I am an atheist, but I was raised according to Christian values,

So you keep saying, but you can't seem to name what those "Christian values" are.

so I make no apology for preferring Christain values to alien Islamic values

interesting you choose the word "alien"

Alien is - belonging to a foreign country, a foreigner, especially one who is not a naturalized citizen of the country where he or she is living

Xenophobia is - dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries

Yet you have resisted the tag Xenophobia.

 

[SirRumpole]

I think you would have trouble finding any comments where I have had a glowing review or supported Islamic values, I think you will find that I believe pretty much all religions are Immoral.

And yet you support religious certification of food (see Halal thread).

 

[SirRumpole]

I do not mean the comment to suggest that Tink is not a nice, caring person, etc etc. I have no idea. Just the notion that any good quality is attributable to religion, especially coming from an atheist, seems hypocritical.

I can't comment on Calliope's alleged hypocrisy, but it's a fact that people have been saved from a life of crime or worse by religious conversions, so in some cases you CAN attribute "nice, caring" characteristics etc to the effects of religion.

(Just being the "Devil's advocate", not that I'm religious or anything like that ).

 

[Value Collector]

And yet you support religious certification of food (see Halal thread).

Yes, for 2 reasons, 1, that I was reffering to when I made the below comment.

the closest I have come to giving any praise to Islam, is on there early adoption of humane treatment of animals, that's it, nothing else.

the second reason I don't attack halal is because as I have said I am a huge believer in religious freedom, I believe people should be able to practise their religion in any way they want as long as it's not harming others or infringing on the rights of others, If that involves putting a small discrete mark saying that a product doesn't contain certain things, I am fine with that. As long as my taxes are not paying for it.

I am also in favour of the free market, I see nothing wrong with private companies marketing their produce to whom ever they want.

 

[Calliope]

Just the notion that any good quality is attributable to religion, especially coming from an atheist, seems hypocritical.

The notion that no "good quality is attributable to religion" seems very judgemental indeed, especially when you claim to be agnostic.

VC's observation;

interesting you choose the word "alien"

Alien is - belonging to a foreign country, a foreigner, especially one who is not a naturalized citizen of the country where he or she is living

Xenophobia is - dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries

Yet you have resisted the tag Xenophobia.

You should resist trying to put your offensive tags on me.

I used the word "alien " in the sense of; (Oxford Dictionary)

Unfamiliar and disturbing or distasteful:
principles that are alien to them
they found the world of further education a little alien
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
Perhaps it might seem alien to someone unfamiliar with comics.
By forming this non-political movement, the members would not be made strange or alien to power.
In fact, the whole act of writing anything at all feels rather strange and alien to me now.