Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

Again, it irks me that people think belief in life after death needs to be a "religious" conviction.

Religions don't own that concept. They have their idea of what an afterlife means, Hell and Damnation or sitting around on clouds playing harps depending on whether you believe in "their' God or not. I don't agree with those silly ideas. A continual progression through many lives learning as we go seems more sensible to me. More of a Buddhist approach.

And before you say Buddhism is a religion, it's not, it's a philosophy.

It is a religious conviction, your version of the after life just happens to be from your own personal religion you have made up for your self.

 

[Tink]

What a silly comment to say, Julia, because I agreed with Rumpole.

Rumpole has never said he believed in religion but at least he is understanding the influences on what religion has contributed in society, not the rubbish that VC keeps trotting out.

Even Tisme commented on him, saying that it's all for effect.
Speak the truth.

What Rumpole said is right, you would never know where we would be, you cannot change history.

I posted what religion contributed as it seems there are a few people in here that have no idea, says a lot about our education system.

 

[SirRumpole]

It is a religious conviction, your version of the after life just happens to be from your own personal religion you have made up for your self.

Name the "religion" you say I'm associated with ?

What religious "Laws" do I observe ?

Whose God do I worship ?

If you think you can denigrate someone just by calling them religious, that is a pretty poor argument.

 

[Value Collector]

Name the "religion" you say I'm associated with ?

.

You haven't told us what you call it, you may not even have given it a name. I am not saying you subscribe to any of the major religions, I completely understand that you have reject those, but as you have described to us you hold some Pantheist beliefs about there being a creator, you believe in an after life and you also believe you will be held some what accountable for your actions in this life in your after life.

What religious "Laws" do I observe ?

I not sure, I haven't studied your religion in depth, But no doubt in your belief that your creator will hold you accountable in some way for your actions here, you have developed some sort of concept in your mind about things that are acceptable and things which are not.

Whose God do I worship ?

I don't think you have given your creator a name, in previous discussions I think you just referred to it as a creator.

If you think you can denigrate someone just by calling them religious, that is a pretty poor argument

I am not denigrating you, I am just saying it how I see it, from what you have described to us in the past. There is various levels of religious behaviour, not all religious people have to bow down and pray ever few hours in like the Muslims do.

for such its just about rubbing their lucky coin every morning and making a wish, but it's still a belief in the supernatural, and the belief in and semi-worship of a superhuman controlling power.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is various levels of religious behaviour, not all religious people have to bow down and pray ever few hours in like the Muslims do.

Oh I see.

Well in that case, you support gay marriage, so you are obviously gay, in one way or another.

 

[FxTrader]

Name the "religion" you say I'm associated with ?

That you are an apologist for religion, its institutions and the religious in general is abundantly clear from your posts here. Not openly aligning oneself with any particular religious tradition but claiming such traditions are useful panderers to the fraud that religion perpetrates on human society - fiction masquerading as absolute truth.

Any belief in a cosmic architect(s) is a religious one since it is based on a faith conviction and not the irrefutable, strong evidence required justifying such belief. Whatever your faith based intuitions may be, that does not grant you kinship with or tolerance from any religious cult or faction.

For the record, while Buddhism is a philosophy for living, it has many traits that qualifies it as religion. The foremost of which is strong belief in reincarnation but also temples, idols etc. Importantly Buddhists don't deny this but claim that Buddhism goes beyond religion so you are at odds with Buddhists themselves on this point.

 

[Value Collector]

The largest amount of people killed were by atheists.

We have been through this already.

Perhaps you missed the question in my response to this, I did notice I failed to put I question mark on it originally.

But, if you care to do so I would like you to answer the below question.

Please name one atheist that has killed for the strict reason he was promoting atheism? (and please don't confuse antitheists with atheists, they are two different things)

In your search for answers to this question, if you fail to find an over whelming number or examples, can you promise never to bring up that statement in a debate again.

 

[SirRumpole]

That you are an apologist for religion, its institutions and the religious in general is abundantly clear from your posts here.

I think you confuse the terms "fair minded" and "apologist".

And what the f*** does it matter to you what other people believe ? Religion isn't compulsory, in this country anyway.

 

[Value Collector]

Oh I see.

Well in that case, you support gay marriage, so you are obviously gay, in one way or another.

You don't just support peoples right to have a religion, you have told me you actually believe in a creator and an after life, and that you will be responsible for your actions here. that is you partaking in religious beliefs, not just supporting others rights to hold them.

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In relation to my personal sexual preferences, I happen to be heterosexual, not that it matters at all to this conversation.

 

[Joe Blow]

Ladies and gentlemen, can we please try and make this thread a little less personal? When the discussion becomes about those posting in the thread rather than the topic of the thread, it inevitably results in insults and personal attacks.

Let's get this thread back on topic please.

 

[SirRumpole]

You don't just support peoples right to have a religion, you have told me you actually believe in a creator and an after life, and that you will be responsible for your actions here. that is you partaking in religious beliefs, not just supporting others rights to hold them.

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In relation to my personal sexual preferences, I happen to be heterosexual, not that it matters at all to this conversation.

"Partaking in religious beliefs"

I only go to church for weddings and funerals

I don't pray

I don't believe that God intervenes in my life

I never read religious texts

I have no idea what a God wants of me or anyone else, therefore I don't know if he has laid down any laws or observances I should follow.

Religion is not simply a belief in a God or afterlife, it's following a set of rules laid down by religious texts, which I don't, except if they happen to be the law of the land.

If I am a religious person in your eyes, then I'm a very poor example of such.

And your sexuality is no concern of mine, I simply used an example to show how silly your religious perjorative against me was.

 

[FxTrader]

I think you confuse the terms "fair minded" and "apologist".

Not at all...

Apologist
1. a person who makes a defence in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

And what the f*** does it matter to you what other people believe?

Where religious belief does not intrude on society in the form of laws, government, freedoms, make claims of moral superiority or undermine the pursuit of science and have an impact human wellbeing in general then it does not warrant much attention. Otherwise, what people believe based on bad or no evidence but assert as absolute truth that must be applied to all must be challenged or theocracy and its ideals will prevail.

 

[SirRumpole]

Not at all...

Apologist
1. a person who makes a defence in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

If you have read all my posts you will know that I have criticised religion a lot. An apologist is one who only says good things about a person, action or idea. A fair minded person is one who can see the good and bad sides of an argument.

I don't think you fall into the latter category.

 

[Value Collector]

"Partaking in religious beliefs"

I only go to church for weddings and funerals

.

Not all religions have churchs, Remember, this is your own private religion we are talking about. I am not saying your a member of a congregation, Your religion has been made up by you, and you may be the only member.

I don't pray

not all religions pray,

I don't believe that God intervenes in my life

not all religions believe that, that's why I have said your beliefs are very Pantheist.

I never read religious texts

The vast majority of religions have no texts.

Religion is not simply a belief in a God or afterlife, it's following a set of rules laid down by religious texts, which I don't.

As I said above most religions have no texts, it can be simply a set of ideas based on the supernatural, which clearly you have.

If I am a religious person in your eyes, then I'm a very poor example of such

Please understand, I am not saying that you partake in any of the major religions, I understand you have rejected those, What I am saying is that you have retained a few components that are acceptable to you, and built your own set of religious ideas around them, which you live by.

That's all I am saying, Some one with your set of beliefs, can not say they are non religious, maybe they can say less religious.

 

[SirRumpole]

That's all I am saying, Some one with your set of beliefs, can not say they are non religious, maybe they can say less religious.

Ok, so given my beliefs that I have described, do they make me a target for all the scorn you have put on "other" religions ? If I was a politician are my beliefs likely to interfere in any way with the way you or others run their lives ?

You have always used the word "religion" as a perjorative and I'd just like to know if anyone can have beliefs that you call "religious" (but I don't) without adhering to all the evil that you ascribe to religion.

 

[FxTrader]

If you have read all my posts you will know that I have criticised religion a lot. An apologist is one who only says good things about a person, action or idea. A fair minded person is one who can see the good and bad sides of an argument. I don't think you fall into the latter category.

No, that's not what an apologist is. I gave you the definition, creating a self-styled definition to suit your argument is intellectual dishonesty.

Fair-mindedness implies impartial or unprejudiced argument. I have studied and considered the argument for religion quite carefully for many years and come to the conclusion that it's largely a fraud and unjustified strong belief in myth and legend. So you're wrong on both counts Rumpole.

 

[SirRumpole]

No, that's not what an apologist is. I gave you the definition, creating a self-styled definition to suit your argument is intellectual dishonesty.

Fair-mindedness implies impartial or unprejudiced argument. I have studied and considered the argument for religion quite carefully for many years and come to the conclusion that it's largely a fraud and unjustified strong belief in myth and legend. So you're wrong on both counts Rumpole.

Ok, so when I see the "Atheist Army" out on the streets feeding the poor, then maybe I'll believe that religion serves no good purpose.

And if I said "Hitler built some good motorways in Germany" would that make me an apologist for Naziism ?

Your argument is bs.

 

[Value Collector]

Ok, so given my beliefs that I have described, do they make me a target for all the scorn you have put on "other" religions ?

No, I respect peoples rights to have a religion. As long as you respect peoples rights to not have a religion, I am fine with that. I think that your personal religion is a private thing you have, and that fine.

If I was a politician are my beliefs likely to interfere in any way with the way you or others run their lives ?

I don't think so, I have actually voted for people that profess stronger beliefs than you.

You have always used the word "religion" as a perjorative and I'd just like to know if anyone can have beliefs that you call "religious" (but I don't) without adhering to all the evil that you ascribe to religion

Evil means Immoral or wicked, so I guess all you have to do is to avoid having concepts or practices in your religion that could be considered immoral.

pretty much all religious groups I have run into do have concepts or practices that are immoral, that's what I was referring to, I listed out a bunch of the immorality in Christian beliefs, not only that but practice of lying to and indoctrinating children, especially if threating them with versions of hell is another immorality that religions have.

If you can build a religion that has no immoral or wicked teachings, doesn't involve spreading lie's or false hoods to children or adults, doesn't encroach on the rights of others, and doesn't stop it's members from understanding reality you may be able to say it's not evil.

So far I haven't come across a religious institution that meets those objectives though.

 

[Value Collector]

Ok, so when I see the "Atheist Army" out on the streets feeding the poor, then maybe I'll believe that religion serves no good purpose.

Are you saying that atheists don't do charity work?

 

[SirRumpole]

Are you saying that atheists don't do charity work?

Not at all, the purpose was to demonstrate that religions do good work, so they aren't all evil. These are the points that one eyed anti religious freaks ignore because of their hatred for religion. It doesn't make them fair minded.