And it is "months" without the apostrophe
Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical
- Thread starter bellenuit
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And it is "months" without the apostrophe
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Are you sure? What if God is not the God of Christians but Allah, the God of Islam. According to Muhammed you will go to hell. Or perhaps the God of the thousand or so other religions that might deem unbelievers in their faith doomed to hell?
What if the true God decided that he would give humans reason and expected them to use it instead of falling for superstitious beliefs that had no credibility. Maybe he might decide that the former are those who should join him in heaven.
What if God who through the Bible indicated he was infinitely merciful and infinitely forgiving decided that all those who believed in him because they thought it a safe bet purely based on Pascal's wager were in fact unworthy because they doubted he was infinitely merciful and infinitely forgiving (They assumed, as you do, that God would commit to hell all those who did no more wrong than anyone else, but because of their education/background/circumstances concluded that Christian God doesn't exist. Is that an infinitely forgiving and merciful God?).
Don't you realise that you are simply believing out of fear? Do you think God, if he exists, will be impressed and reward you for that.
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You've made some interesting contributions both here and on another of the religion threads. I'm curious about your comment regarding "the stark difference between the faithful and the skeptic."
Do you consider these two qualities (faith and skepticism) to be mutually exclusive?
Have you perchance noticed that many skeptics (not necessarily all) can be seen to be displaying a certain degree of faith in their own belief system/s?
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Chris,
You're probably feeling a bit ganged up on by now. Given that I definitely believe in the possibility that there are metaphysical phenomena that can physically afflict devout religious practitioners in accordance with their particular belief system (which could explain amongst other things why the wounds appear on the hands and not the wrists!), I can readily entertain the possibility that events have occurred that have come to be understood by the Church as "stigmata". However, that doesn't mean that every claimed event will be genuine!
I would want to see investigations conducted by a far more impartial and credible team. A typically jaundiced "current affairs" style journalist, such as Willisee, cannot be reasonably expected to provide much more than entertainment value when it comes to the investigation and reporting of events.
Ruby, had you used the word "Many" rather than "ALL" I would be in 100% agreeance with your sentiments. The reason for my disagreement with the use of the term "ALL" is simply that, whilst your statement may indeed prove to be true sometime in the future, I don't see how anyone can confidently make such an absolute assertion at this point in time.
You're probably feeling a bit ganged up on by now. Given that I definitely believe in the possibility that there are metaphysical phenomena that can physically afflict devout religious practitioners in accordance with their particular belief system (which could explain amongst other things why the wounds appear on the hands and not the wrists!), I can readily entertain the possibility that events have occurred that have come to be understood by the Church as "stigmata". However, that doesn't mean that every claimed event will be genuine!
I would want to see investigations conducted by a far more impartial and credible team. A typically jaundiced "current affairs" style journalist, such as Willisee, cannot be reasonably expected to provide much more than entertainment value when it comes to the investigation and reporting of events.
Ruby, had you used the word "Many" rather than "ALL" I would be in 100% agreeance with your sentiments. The reason for my disagreement with the use of the term "ALL" is simply that, whilst your statement may indeed prove to be true sometime in the future, I don't see how anyone can confidently make such an absolute assertion at this point in time.
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As I said earlier, I'm not sure what to make of this stigmata phenomenon, but from what I could see, Rivas' hands, feet and head were clearly visible throughout the ordeal and if she had been cutting herself it would surely have been quite obvious to all around her and there would be no documentary. If they were going to fake something surely they could come up with something a bit more imaginative than that. Even 15 yrs ago, video manipulation would have allowed for something much more impressive.
There have been many attempted hoaxes and magic tricks over the years, including the ridiculous images of Jesus or Mary on pieces of toast, etc, and they've all been exposed as such fairly quickly. If the stigmata phenomenon was all a hoax as the skeptics claim, it should be quite easy to create a convincing reenactment, like Randi did with the Filipino psychic surgery. Why has this not been done?
As I also said earlier, any fool can be an armchair skeptic and dismiss everything as a hoax. Some fools even believe the moon landing never occurred and it was all an elaborate Hollywood stunt. I must confess I'm one of the gullible ones who believe that the landings did occur.
No one will ever be able to prove the existence of God beyond doubt. That's not what faith is all about.
If Jesus came back to Earth and I snapped a selfie of us with our arms around each other's shoulders and posted it here, you'd all scream "FAKE!!!", "PHOTOSHOP!!!"
If God appeared in the sky in some unmistakable form, from horizon to horizon, you'd all just dismiss it as a clever laser trick.
If you are a committed atheist and skeptic, then nothing will change your mind because every paranormal event will have an alternative explanation, no matter how weak or pathetic, and you will be happy to embrace such explanations because they support your position. But, until such time that it's proven to be a hoax, I will hold the view that the stigmata could be true and maintain an open mind. I haven't bothered to read all of the other stuff about texts and statues etc. but if the stigmata is a hoax, prove it by creating a convincing reenactment, surely that can't be too difficult.
I believe the old saying (based on Jeremiah 5:21, I think) holds true, [I]"There are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear"[/I].
Great post, my bolds
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When I was 16 I went to the doctor about a dicky knee. He had a 2nd or 3rd year med student sitting in on the consultation.
At some point my heart stopped and I fell off the chair I was sitting on and gave my head a good crack on the floor.
Strangely I remember looking up at the doctor as he was thumping my chest, since he couldn't find a pulse, and saw the poor med student standing in the doorway looking like she was reconsidering her career. That prankster voice in my head kept telling me to say boo and she'd probably pass out.
I looked both of them directly in the eye a number of times, yet both told me I had been unconscious for a couple of minutes and it wasn't till the doctor cracked my sternum that I seemed to come back.
Don't really know how to explain this.
At some point my heart stopped and I fell off the chair I was sitting on and gave my head a good crack on the floor.
Strangely I remember looking up at the doctor as he was thumping my chest, since he couldn't find a pulse, and saw the poor med student standing in the doorway looking like she was reconsidering her career. That prankster voice in my head kept telling me to say boo and she'd probably pass out.
I looked both of them directly in the eye a number of times, yet both told me I had been unconscious for a couple of minutes and it wasn't till the doctor cracked my sternum that I seemed to come back.
Don't really know how to explain this.
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Good post.
I'm not saying that I believe the stigmata stuff but committed atheists will dismiss ANY supernatural activity by giving it an alternate explanation no matter how unconvincing (as you said).
When you are locked into that rigid mindset it seems there is almost no way out!
Everything deserves thorough investigation. No point being gullible. But also no point being gullible in poor explanations to explain things away.
I'm not saying that I believe the stigmata stuff but committed atheists will dismiss ANY supernatural activity by giving it an alternate explanation no matter how unconvincing (as you said).
When you are locked into that rigid mindset it seems there is almost no way out!
Everything deserves thorough investigation. No point being gullible. But also no point being gullible in poor explanations to explain things away.
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We like to believe we know so much, yet each new discovery seems to show us just how more complex the universe is.
From believing in phlogiston, to understanding elemental chemistry, from 4 elements to the periodic table, from a sun revolving around the earth to the earth revolving around a sun, from the believe that the weight of a substance was due to its nature to a general theory of gravity.
There's still argument as to how a fat bumble bee can fly on such tiny wings.
Maybe if we continue to grow our minds for a few hundred thousand years we might be deemed at a level capable of meeting some higher existence?? The group of scientists who created the first man made bacteria probably don't get to involved in it's day to day living. Bit difficult to communicate when you've living in such different planes of existence.
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Maybe there is no higher existence Syd.
Interesting to speculate.
But I say show me the evidence first and then I'll make a conclusion.
Rather than making a conclusion and believing that evidence will appear.
The complexity of the universe cannot be comprehended. The amount of order is staggering too and the incredible precision.
The more and more we discover the more it points to a creator and the less likely pure 'chance' is. (I won't use the word impossible or some will flip out haha)
Interesting to speculate.
But I say show me the evidence first and then I'll make a conclusion.
Rather than making a conclusion and believing that evidence will appear.
The complexity of the universe cannot be comprehended. The amount of order is staggering too and the incredible precision.
The more and more we discover the more it points to a creator and the less likely pure 'chance' is. (I won't use the word impossible or some will flip out haha)
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Thank's Ruby.
And it's Willesee not Willasee.
Well done Chis45,
The spelling and grammar police defeated again.
Who cares if there is a spelling error, get a life.
Julia
In Memoriam
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Did you put the above apostrophe in "thanks" on purpose seemingly just to irritate Ruby again?Thank's Ruby.
There is also a journalist whose surname is spelled "Willacy", so multiple spellings of the same sound.
The correction was to punctuation, not spelling.
Perhaps consider that the constant inappropriate insertion of apostrophes, not just on this site but seemingly everywhere, is pretty annoying.
There is plenty of information available on how to use apostrophes and it doesn't include "if in doubt, just whack in an apostrophe"!
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Haha first world problems. Joking.
Some care might be beneficial
Some care might be beneficial
Bellenuit, I don't accept your premise that the Willesee documentary was a total fraud, hoax and conspiracy. Do you have any actual proof of that?
I disagree with your view and will maintain an open mind until hard evidence is produced. But, if you wish to side with the skeptics then of course you are free to do so.
It's an annoying fact of life these days that video editors tend to chop and change to try and hold the interest of people with short concentration spans. Few viewers, even atheists, have the patience to watch lengthy segments of video in which there is not a lot of continuous action to hold their interest.
I don't know much about Islam but my understanding is that both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. The Muslims and Bahá'Ãs believe that Muhammad was a messenger and prophet of God, and the Christians believe that Jesus was God's son. My money is on Jesus.
The fear of eternal separation from God and all of the good souls in Heaven and being sentenced to Hell in whatever form it takes, maybe as a disembodied soul drifting all alone in the depths of space in one of those parallel universes, as I read somewhere recently, works for me.
I think it will be a HUGE let down if the "Standard Model" was proved to be correct and this was all there was ... no other universes, probably no other life in our universe, no life after death, what you see is what you get, etc. How dreadfully boring!
String Theory, multiverses, reincarnation, Heaven, God ... sounds much more exciting to me, and am I hoping it's all true? Absolutely YES!!! ... at least as much as the atheists are hoping it's not. Will I abandon critical thought and blindly accept everything I'm told? Most definitely NO!!!
I was told recently that there was an interview with David Attenborough and he was commenting on a recent documentary he did about termite colonies in which he used endoscopes to probe the inner workings of the colony, and he mused something like, "How do we know we're not being observed by beings from another world in a similar fashion?". Even experienced naturalists are starting to open their minds to radical new possibilities.
But if, when I get to the end of the line, I find it's not true my final thought, as my brain shuts down and the darkness descends, will probably be, "Bugger!!! Well at least I enjoyed the ride."
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Cynic, do you have any evidence of people being able to produce at will wounds on their skin as appears to be the case in the documentary? The stills on apleatohumanity.com, although small, look quite real to me.
Has there been any follow up on the stigmata phenomenon, or could it be that after all of the ridicule heaped on the Willesee team by the skeptics and atheists, no one has been prepared to go near it again?
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Sydboy, that must have been a very traumatic experience for you! You had a knee problem but your heart stopped. Wow! Any thoughts as to why that happened? Blood clot from the knee perhaps?
Two explanations of the eye contact experience spring to mind, (1) you imagined it as your brain was being starved of oxygen, (2) you had an "out of body experience" as your soul was preparing to leave your body.
What are your thoughts?
Yes, we think we pretty smart but we have so much more yet to discover. The potential size of the "unknown unknowns" category is mind boggling.
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Julia, the smiley should be a clue. The first apostrophe was an accident that my ageing spell checker failed to pick up. I'm getting old!
I disagree with your view and will maintain an open mind until hard evidence is produced. But, if you wish to side with the skeptics then of course you are free to do so.
It's an annoying fact of life these days that video editors tend to chop and change to try and hold the interest of people with short concentration spans. Few viewers, even atheists, have the patience to watch lengthy segments of video in which there is not a lot of continuous action to hold their interest.
I don't know much about Islam but my understanding is that both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. The Muslims and Bahá'Ãs believe that Muhammad was a messenger and prophet of God, and the Christians believe that Jesus was God's son. My money is on Jesus.
You wish!
Heck YES! The carrot and stick approach works very well with me. One of the reasons I stick to speed limits is the fear of being fined (as well of course as the much larger fear of hitting a child, animal, etc. who suddenly runs out in front of me, as happened once).
The fear of eternal separation from God and all of the good souls in Heaven and being sentenced to Hell in whatever form it takes, maybe as a disembodied soul drifting all alone in the depths of space in one of those parallel universes, as I read somewhere recently, works for me.
I think it will be a HUGE let down if the "Standard Model" was proved to be correct and this was all there was ... no other universes, probably no other life in our universe, no life after death, what you see is what you get, etc. How dreadfully boring!
String Theory, multiverses, reincarnation, Heaven, God ... sounds much more exciting to me, and am I hoping it's all true? Absolutely YES!!! ... at least as much as the atheists are hoping it's not. Will I abandon critical thought and blindly accept everything I'm told? Most definitely NO!!!
I was told recently that there was an interview with David Attenborough and he was commenting on a recent documentary he did about termite colonies in which he used endoscopes to probe the inner workings of the colony, and he mused something like, "How do we know we're not being observed by beings from another world in a similar fashion?". Even experienced naturalists are starting to open their minds to radical new possibilities.
But if, when I get to the end of the line, I find it's not true my final thought, as my brain shuts down and the darkness descends, will probably be, "Bugger!!! Well at least I enjoyed the ride."
-------
Cynic, do you have any evidence of people being able to produce at will wounds on their skin as appears to be the case in the documentary? The stills on apleatohumanity.com, although small, look quite real to me.
Has there been any follow up on the stigmata phenomenon, or could it be that after all of the ridicule heaped on the Willesee team by the skeptics and atheists, no one has been prepared to go near it again?
-------
Sydboy, that must have been a very traumatic experience for you! You had a knee problem but your heart stopped. Wow! Any thoughts as to why that happened? Blood clot from the knee perhaps?
Two explanations of the eye contact experience spring to mind, (1) you imagined it as your brain was being starved of oxygen, (2) you had an "out of body experience" as your soul was preparing to leave your body.
What are your thoughts?
Yes, we think we pretty smart but we have so much more yet to discover. The potential size of the "unknown unknowns" category is mind boggling.
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Julia, the smiley should be a clue. The first apostrophe was an accident that my ageing spell checker failed to pick up. I'm getting old!
Point taken, Cynic. You are quite correct.
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Thank's Ruby.
And it's Willesee not Willasee.
Touche Chris - I stand corrected.
My thoughts exactly Pavilion. The dots are starting to join up and the picture that's forming is mind bendingly fascinating.
I've always thought abiogenesis was an unlikely phenomenon because it goes against the basic laws of thermodynamics that govern chemical reactions, as evidenced by the fact that it has never been achieved in a laboratory, despite all of our highly sophisticated abilities. And we're asked to accept that it happened spontaneously in a pond or fumarole somewhere? Huge ask!
However, first creation, then evolution makes sense to me, but the atheists aren't comfortable with the first part.
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Cheers RubyTouche Chris - I stand corrected.
Pavilion (and Chris) I am not as rigid as you claim, and I suspect many others who share my views feel the same. I am not closed to the paranormal. In fact I think it is quite possible that people - using the power of their minds - can make themselves bleed spontaneously (as in cases of stigmata). Their belief that it will happen is so strong that their minds force it to happen. The power of the mind is way beyond our current understanding. I accept there are many things for which we have no explanations - so far. What I don't accept is that these hard, or impossible, to explain events are a 'sign from God'.
When people make claims, the onus is on the one making the claim to prove its veracity - not the other way round. The Willesee (have I got it right this time?) documentary was so full of flaws that anyone with a questioning mind would doubt its veracity. It seems fairly clear that the woman inflicted the wounds on herself, and if the public is expected to believe otherwise, then video proof would have to be supplied. It wasn't. It was a cheap illusionist trick.
How do you know atheists (or non believers in your god) aren't comfortable with that? There are many people who do not believe in the Christian god, but who are happy to accept that there might be a higher mind that started things off in the beginning and then left it to evolve. There are many degrees of 'belief' (for want of a better way of expressing it) which do not include subscribing to Christian beliefs.
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