Value Collector
Have courage, and be kind.
- Joined
- 13 January 2014
- Posts
- 12,203
- Reactions
- 8,447
you are mistaking terms there,
the are against your absolute morality of your church, but no necessarily immoral in tregards to objective morality.
Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical
- Thread starter bellenuit
- Start date
the are against your absolute morality of your church, but no necessarily immoral in tregards to objective morality.
Value Collector
Have courage, and be kind.
- Joined
- 13 January 2014
- Posts
- 12,203
- Reactions
- 8,447
why else would they be instructed to kill the men and boys and non virgin women, but keep the virgin women?
Yes they are (immoral) in regards to objective morality. Objective morality is founded on God , so it's wrong. As I explained before, whole point of sexual activity is not just pleasure but reproduction as well (must be open to life). So it's a misuse of sexuality, and causes problems (e.g. perversion makes people enjoy intercourse less, so they do unnatural things for fun, or become addicted etc). I'm just explaining. And it makes sense, because if you're God, then you designed sexual activity not just for pleasure. The culture has changed now, but don't get sucked in thinking it's any good for you.
u know where that verse is, so i can see?
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
They were highly evil, you say?
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens." (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
I could give you hundreds of more quotes from The Bible where God exhorts and commands his followers to murder and rape innocents. I am surprised you are not aware of these. Saying you follow Jesus is a cop out, because we know that the God of the OT is one and the same as Jesus according to Christianity. Your perfect morality is a farce.
I am sure (but I do not have time to check back now) that you also claimed homosexuality is immoral (at least the practice of) because of what God has said. Yet all the quotes re homosexuality come from the OT, so it is a bit hypocritical to pick those quotes as the source of your morality but reject the notion that God is profoundly immoral based on the Bible.
Value Collector
Have courage, and be kind.
- Joined
- 13 January 2014
- Posts
- 12,203
- Reactions
- 8,447
Numbers 31.15-18
And Moses said unto them, have you saved all the women alive?... now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. but all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep them alive for yourselves.
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
Some more of your God's objective morality...
Rape:
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Rape and Slavery
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
More Rape
“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Rape of other mens' wives and murder of innocents.
Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.”(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
This is the God upon whom your objective morality is founded. Maybe you should read the Bible rather than listen to apologists like William Craig. I can't recall who said it, but it goes like: if you want to make someone an atheist, ask them to read the bible.
Value Collector
Have courage, and be kind.
- Joined
- 13 January 2014
- Posts
- 12,203
- Reactions
- 8,447
You are describing absolute morality here, not objective morality.
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
Regarding the bible, this is an apt quote from Mark Twain and illustrates the absurdity of referring to it as a source of objective morality, not to mention perfect morality:
The Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes...The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.....There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.
The Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes...The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.....There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.
- Joined
- 21 April 2014
- Posts
- 7,956
- Reactions
- 1,070
I think the Bible just bashes back 
Tisme
Apathetic at Best
- Joined
- 27 August 2014
- Posts
- 8,954
- Reactions
- 1,152
I think the Bible just bashes back
with the counter boredom?
- Joined
- 21 April 2014
- Posts
- 7,956
- Reactions
- 1,070
- Joined
- 21 April 2014
- Posts
- 7,956
- Reactions
- 1,070
Please explain.
I'll take a look at some of those verses and get back. I don't know everything about the OT. Just musing though, consider the verse in the NT, “..let he who is without sin cast the first stone..”. So God is able to punish it would seem to me if He wants to, since He is without sin. He has the right to kill. This would seem immoral to you, but I think that is because your morality, as others have pointed out, is based on Christian morality (being merciful). But you also mentioned cases where innocents are punished, so I'll take a look.
And no, like other Christians I've never been phased too much by the violence in the OT since the NT is very peaceful and that is our guide. e.g. love your enemies, forgive 77 times etc. You kept quoting the OT, which isn't my guide.
I don't know the answer to everything. I'm sure it's the same with evolution.
Regards gay relationships, there are NT verses from Paul. Furthermore, Jesus went on to reveal an important virtue to mankind, the value of sexual restraint or purity, using a parable about 'looking'. From that other kinds of right sexual behavior may be derived, it seems tome. Without this virtue in society, I think we would be as our ancestors were (OT people), wild and unrestrained. We seem to be gravitating back there.
In the meantime, some inspiring words on what the Christian/Jesus morality is really about:
“
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law...
”
“
. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs.… 6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, enduresall things. 8Love never fails.
“ (ignore formatting)
aren't all these things perfect enough for you?
- Joined
- 25 February 2011
- Posts
- 5,688
- Reactions
- 1,231
The following chapter, says pretty much all that I feel needs to be said, about the witchhunting antics, permeating the last couple of pages of postings to this thread:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7:1-7&version=KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7:1-7&version=KJV
- Joined
- 18 September 2008
- Posts
- 4,041
- Reactions
- 1,185
Nothing Christians hate more than having the Bible quoted to them.
- Joined
- 25 February 2011
- Posts
- 5,688
- Reactions
- 1,231
Really!
I love the fact that anti theists feel compelled to refer to scripture in pursuance of their agenda! It is the ultimate irony!
What is even more comical, is that those same anti-theists, regularly cite passages detailing brutal behaviours that are at complete odds to Christ's teachings, thereby undermining their very own argument/s against Christianity!
I wouldn't be too phased by this OT one. It's something to do with the times, and they were executing justice to some extent as well, and they were a barbarous people. will scoop some of those other verses soon enough.
I had a look and I don't see it that way at all. There were a few examples where the context was different but I won't explain those (no time). As for the other examples u mentioned, it was again about punishing people. And there are no instructions from God to rape. Rather it happens as part of the violence. And the king David example , where his wives get raped, shall we then say that God forced Absalom against his own will to do the raping? I wouldn't interpret the verse that way. But instead , think of this “..we reap what we sow..”.
Just a thought but seems to me that in the OT God punishes immorality and accepts 'sin sacrifices ' to atone for sins, and gets involved in the current day system to best handle slaves concubines etc. However all the while intending to change it in the future. In the NT Jesus is the sin sacrifice so God doesn't need to punish anyone anymore. Immorality is dealt with, but through Jesus. Regards the innocent babies, well, I don't like it too, and it's unfortunate that they're in the middle of the road.
As Cynic said, we can't judge God as we don't know everything, and all motivation behind it. And the NT is what you want to focus on.
Haven't read this but it's got some stuff about rape in the Old T, if you're interested :
https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html