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I have a distinct suspicion there are couple of recidivist contrary posters who compulsively plagiarise dialogue form youtube videos, then use the same videos to support their contrived argument as if to give legitimacy to the fallacies.
 
SirRumpole said:
My view is that "secular morality" is just a wrapper that atheists put around religious morality in order to deny that religious morality is the basis of our moral system as ingrained into Anglo Saxon society by thousands of years of Church influence.
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Perhaps what we are witnessing from some of these posters are children from migrant parents who don't have the advantage of Anglo heritage and therefore don't appreciate how traditional Australian secularism manifested itself.

My argument would be that Austral Anglo society inherited an British antagonism to rabid religious control as witnessed by the vanguard to the uptake of protestant reform and stable rule of law, whereas Europeans had archaic ecclesiastical and canon laws to guide their morality and ethics, Asians brutality and starvation, Muslims subservience to Mullahs and Caliphs, etc.

Australia enshrined secularism, but also implicitly enshrined the Christian church (biased to the Anglican compatibility to the crown) through separation of powers.

I suspect, e,g the leader of the Greens, we are seeing 1st/2nd gens who are delighted with their freedom from religious and cultural dogma that pervaded their prior family generations and are going over the top making a mess of the home like a kid with water pistol. Multiculturalism means they just ignore the foundation rules and norms.
 
Tisme said:
I suspect, e,g the leader of the Greens, we are seeing 1st/2nd gens who are delighted with their freedom from religious and cultural dogma that pervaded their prior family generations and are going over the top making a mess of the home like a kid with water pistol. Multiculturalism means they just ignore the foundation rules and norms.
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I heard the leader of the Greens bleating on about Australia Day and how it should be changed to please 2% of the population. Christmas, Easter and Anzac day will be next, whitewashing (or should I say multicultural washing) history and tradition.

I wish the Greens would concentrate on their core business, environmentalism, renewable energy and keeping the other bastards honest, otherwise they are in danger of turning themselves into a 2% fringe group rather than a 10% fringe group.
 
cynic said:
You still haven't quite caught onto the problem of "secular moral" definition though, have you?
How is maintaining the wellbeing of anything, whatsoever, morally correct in an accidental universe?
How can the wellbeing of any accident, be deemed to be correct?
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Because we are thinking creatures that have evolved to care about our own wellbeing and he well being of others.

The very fact that everyone has answered my question about why they care about morality has given real world reasons about protecting themselves and protecting others shows this.

What you haven’t caught onto is that following instructions from a religious text doesn’t make you moral, it makes you amoral.
 
SirRumpole said:
It's not a matter of want I want, I'm just saying that so called secular morality derived from religious morality, but atheists don't want to acknowledge that so they made up their own version.
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How is it derived from religious morality, when secular morality has been the driving force to reduce the immorality of the religious teachings.

Religions didn’t invent morality, they highjacked it for their own purposes.
 
Let me ask he question this way.

is there any immoral act that you think can only be shown to be immoral with religion?

Eg it has no secular reasoning against it and therefore requires religion.
 
Value Collector said:
Because we are thinking creatures that have evolved to care about our own wellbeing and he well being of others.

The very fact that everyone has answered my question about why they care about morality has given real world reasons about protecting themselves and protecting others shows this.

What you haven’t caught onto is that following instructions from a religious text doesn’t make you moral, it makes you amoral.
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Firstly, I have most certainly not conflated scriptural instructions with morality! If you had taken the time to not only read, but to also understand what I have been posting, you would already know this!

Secondly, you continually fail to address the problem, namely that of objectively defining correct behaviour in an accidental existence!
 
cynic said:
Firstly, I have most certainly not conflated scriptural instructions with morality! If you had taken the time to not only read, but to also understand what I have been posting, you would already know this!

Secondly, you continually fail to address the problem, namely that of objectively defining correct behaviour in an accidental existence!
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So how do you define what is right and wrong if you say it can only be right or wrong if a god says so, but you aren't reading scriptures or instructions from any said god?

I don't buy into your whole concept of morality requiring a god, it is clear to me that morality is a concept that has been created or discovered by humans because we care about the well being of ourselves and others, but even though it was created or discovered by humans, it is not subjective, becasue our well being is derived from the physical universe eg, poison will kill you, so will fire etc these things are not subjective.
 
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SirRumpole said:
So what religious teachings do you consider immoral ?

(Excluding Acts of God).
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Killing, torturing or threatening non believers is immoral. (don't you agree?)

freedom of and from religion is a secular concept. the separation of church and state etc.
 
Value Collector said:
How is it derived from religious morality, when secular morality has been the driving force to reduce the immorality of the religious teachings.

Religions didn’t invent morality, they highjacked it for their own purposes.
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Religion enshrined certain ethics (objective). Morals are a personal (subjective) opinion that may or may not be predicated on cherry picking ethics.

e.g. I find it morally indefensible for a member trying to bully another member by calling them a liar, but my ethics says I think he has the right to make a fool of himself :D
 
SirRumpole said:
Do you consider adultery to be immoral ? Why ?
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I only consider adultery immoral if it involves lying or breaking a promise/contract with your partner.

If both partners are consenting to the situation I don't think it is immoral.

this goes back to what I was saying about morality being situational rather than based on absolute rules put forth by a religion.

There are guys out there that get a real kick out of watching their wife have sex with a stranger, if both the husband, the wife and the stranger are all having a good time, why would it be immoral?
 
Value Collector said:
So how do you define what is right and wrong if you say it can only be right or wrong if a god says so, but you aren't reading scriptures or instructions from any said god?

I don't buy into your whole concept of morality requiring a god, it is clear to me that morality is a concept that has been created or discovered by humans because we care about the well being of ourselves and others, but even though it was created or discovered by humans, it is not subjective, becasue our well being is derived from the physical universe eg, whether poison will kill you, so will fire etc these things are not subjective.
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Again you are misunderstanding what I am saying! Deities and/or scriptural writings about same, needn't be referenced in this argument.

(i)Morality, by its very definition, cannot exist in the absence of purpose, intent or design!
(ii)Hence, if the secular viewpoint is correct, there can be no morality!

Now where in the above two statements (i)-(ii), can one find reference to deities,or scriptures of same?
 
Value Collector said:
There are guys out there that get a real kick out of watching their wife have sex with a stranger, if both the husband, the wife and the stranger are all having a good time, why would it be immoral?
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Distraction. That may be 0.001% of adultery cases, the vast majority are behind a partners back. But surely the question of morality is irrelevant anyway if there is no penalty attached to it ? Why not make adultery illegal if we consider it immoral ? Why is an atheist even considering the question of morality ?
 
bellenuit said:
Most of the laws of the OT were immoral in themselves and you cannot fight immorality with immorality. You can explain it away as much as you like because you cannot come to terms with that fact, but any rational person know that the OT was advocating immoral acts.
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Well, if you are talking about the Law itself, than that verse I quoted (plus some others ) explain it well enough. The Law of ancient Israel which had harsh penalties was designed for a people that lacked morality. We're talking about people who killed their parents, had intercourse with animals, traded slaves. I suppose without it, in there time there would have been chaos everywhere. Side comment: with less and less sexual values , we'd expect more raping and violence to occur (it won't get better).

In any case Jesus himself brings out the new standard and overwrites all the harsh stuff in several places. e.g. now I saw to you, love your enemies..forgiveness... etc . Also, take his teaching on marriage. What did He say when the apostles thought it was too hard? He explained that what He taught was in the beginning. That Moses gave them flexibility since it was too hard for them to follow. So the morals were always there, but God does what He has to do. It does make sense.


“
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
“
(Rom)
So none of the harsh justice in the Old Testament applies in Christianity.

Side comment: Muslims actually like to bring up these issues, since for their religion to be true, they have to prove that Jesus is in harmony with Islamic principles (harsh justice) .
 
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Do you think Adultery is immoral? if so why?

SirRumpole said:
Distraction. That may be 0.001% of adultery cases, the vast majority are behind a partners back.
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Then as I said I would be against it.
But surely the question of morality is irrelevant anyway if there is no penalty attached to it ?
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There is a penalty in that you may lose your current partner, access to kids etc home life destroyed, your standing with your family and peers maybe be reduced.

But as for a criminal penalty, it is probably not that serious an offence to justify jail (or stoning)



Why not make adultery illegal if we consider it immoral ?
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Because as I said it is not always immoral, and its a civil matter more than a state matter, its more a kin to contract law than criminal law.

Why is an atheist even considering the question of morality ?
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Why wouldn't I. I live In this world.

As I pointed out before, even the non atheists among us pointed out that the reason they care about morality is due to real world outcomes.

My whole argument is that morality is not depended on any gods, but was invented/discovered by humans, and is based around maximising human well being.

I am a human and want to live an enjoyable life, and to live an enjoyable life I need to live in a moral society (not religious morality, but real world secular morality based on human well being)
 
cynic said:
(i)Morality, by its very definition, cannot exist in the absence of purpose, intent or design!
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why must it be designed?

why could it not evolve?

or if it must be designed, why can it not be designed by humans? using logic?
 
Value Collector said:
why must it be designed?

why could it not evolve?

or if it must be designed, why can it not be designed by humans? using logic?
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Morality is a consequence of the existence of purpose! Morality is therefore impossible in the accidental existence to which the secularist subscribes!
 
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