Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

This has all been done before, so why bother to do it again ?

I don't think it's my job to convince you by providing proof that you simply dismiss, it doesn't matter to me whether you think there is a god or not but it seems to matter to you that other people shouldn't believe that there is a god, so why don't you give you evidence for non existence ?

I don’t think Wayne has defined his god, unless I missed it.

No it’s not your job, but this is a discussion forum, if you don’t want to discuss it, why are you here?

 

[Value Collector]

But if you truly believe that it is silly, then how about you explain to me how it is that you arrived at this silliness conclusion!

Quite happy to do that for you, just lay out the premises so every one is on the same page, and I will show you where the problem is

But I have never met someone who was convinced to become a theist by the kalam, it’s just an arguement that people that already believe put forward to try an justify their pre existing belief.

But maybe you are different, was the kalam the thing that convinced you? If not what was? And why aren’t you leading with that instead of defeating to the kalam?

 

[SirRumpole]

No it’s not your job, but this is a discussion forum, if you don’t want to discuss it, why are you here?

I've been here a long time, and said it all before, but it still hasn't sunk in to some people.

 

[Value Collector]

I've been here a long time, and said it all before, but it still hasn't sunk in to some people.

My question was to wayne though, I wasn’t asking you what you believe, you have explained it to me before.

 

[SirRumpole]

My question was to wayne though, I wasn’t asking you what you believe, you have explained it to me before.

Sorry, I thought it was a general question.

 

[cynic]

Quite happy to do that for you, just lay out the premises so every one is on the same page, and I will show you where the problem is

But I have never met someone who was convinced to become a theist by the kalam, it’s just an arguement that people that already believe put forward to try an justify their pre existing belief.

But maybe you are different, was the kalam the thing that convinced you? If not what was? And why aren’t you leading with that instead of defeating to the kalam?

The argument has already been covered by Dr Craig, in the video I linked in an earlier post.

If you are doubtful of the validity, of any of the premises, and/or the integrity of the logic, used to derive the uncaused causer conclusion, from those premises, I would be genuinely interested in seeing your logical basis (if any) for contesting the integrity of the argument and its conclusion.

I have strongly believed in the existence of God since a specific event which occured approximately 30 years ago. I had neither seen nor examined any philosophical arguments, of this nature, beyond my own personal contemplations of questions surrounding the mysterious and seemingly paradoxical nature of material existence. Interestingly enough, the kalam cosmological argument seems to operate along similar lines to my personal ruminations.

My observations weren't sufficient to dispel my lingering doubts around the question of the existence of a god, or perhaps gods.

What finally convinced me of the existence of God was God!

It was during one of the darker periods of my life, when I had an urgent need, for an answer, to a very important question about life. My true position at the time could fairly be described as lying somewhere between agnosticism and atheism.

Upon posing the question, it was answered, within seconds, when a small bird, broke an exit sign, right in front of me. (Sometimes I like to describe this event as God sending a winged messenger to deliver me a sign.)

Since that moment, I have never had cause to doubt in the existence of a potent higher intelligence. Nor do I have any reason to doubt, that we are here by design(not accident) and our existence does have purpose.

 

[grah33]

My observations weren't sufficient to dispel my lingering doubts around the question of the existence of a god, or perhaps gods.
.

"perhaps Gods"? You believe in one God or more, i don't understand.

 

[cynic]

The argument has already been covered by Dr Craig, in the video I linked in an earlier post.

If you are doubtful of the validity, of any of the premises, and/or the integrity of the logic, used to derive the uncaused causer conclusion, from those premises, I would be genuinely interested in seeing your logical basis (if any) for contesting the integrity of the argument and its conclusion.

I have strongly believed in the existence of God since a specific event which occured approximately 30 years ago. I had neither seen nor examined any philosophical arguments, of this nature, beyond my own personal contemplations of questions surrounding the mysterious and seemingly paradoxical nature of material existence. Interestingly enough, the kalam cosmological argument seems to operate along similar lines to my personal ruminations.

My observations weren't sufficient to dispel my lingering doubts around the question of the existence of a god, or perhaps gods.

What finally convinced me of the existence of God was God!

It was during one of the darker periods of my life, when I had an urgent need, for an answer, to a very important question about life. My true position at the time could fairly be described as lying somewhere between agnosticism and atheism.

Upon posing the question, it was answered, within seconds, when a small bird, broke an exit sign, right in front of me. (Sometimes I like to describe this event as God sending a winged messenger to deliver me a sign.)

Since that moment, I have never had cause to doubt in the existence of a potent higher intelligence. Nor do I have any reason to doubt, that we are here by design(not accident) and our existence does have purpose.

Late correction to an error in this post : the event I described happened approximately 20 (not 30) years ago. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience this erroneous detail may have caused.

 

[cynic]

"perhaps Gods"? You believe in one God or more, i don't understand.

I am convinced that at least one god must exist, but am unable at present to logically conclude, or exclude, the possibility of multiple deities.

However, for the present, I am content to believe in the one that answered my question.

 

[luutzu]

The argument has already been covered by Dr Craig, in the video I linked in an earlier post.

If you are doubtful of the validity, of any of the premises, and/or the integrity of the logic, used to derive the uncaused causer conclusion, from those premises, I would be genuinely interested in seeing your logical basis (if any) for contesting the integrity of the argument and its conclusion.

I have strongly believed in the existence of God since a specific event which occured approximately 30 years ago. I had neither seen nor examined any philosophical arguments, of this nature, beyond my own personal contemplations of questions surrounding the mysterious and seemingly paradoxical nature of material existence. Interestingly enough, the kalam cosmological argument seems to operate along similar lines to my personal ruminations.

My observations weren't sufficient to dispel my lingering doubts around the question of the existence of a god, or perhaps gods.

What finally convinced me of the existence of God was God!

It was during one of the darker periods of my life, when I had an urgent need, for an answer, to a very important question about life. My true position at the time could fairly be described as lying somewhere between agnosticism and atheism.

Upon posing the question, it was answered, within seconds, when a small bird, broke an exit sign, right in front of me. (Sometimes I like to describe this event as God sending a winged messenger to deliver me a sign.)

Since that moment, I have never had cause to doubt in the existence of a potent higher intelligence. Nor do I have any reason to doubt, that we are here by design(not accident) and our existence does have purpose.

So a bird breaking an exit sign convinced you God exists?

It was still a pretty confusing sign to give though. I mean, breaking an Exit sign... does that mean He tells you to NOT Exit, i.e. don't think of exiting because the option is broken so don't do it. OR, exit, exit hard, so hard it breaks the sign.

Just realised that it was a dark period so exit now have a different meaning. So just in case, don't exit dude, the forum is more fun with you. [see, I could also talk both ways, like God and other Oracles ]

 

[grah33]

I am convinced that at least one god must exist, but am unable at present to logically conclude, or exclude, the possibility of multiple deities.

However, for the present, I am content to believe in the one that answered my question.

which type of God do you believe in, and which do you think may also exist?

 

[grah33]

Just to be more clear, my view is that perhaps God wants to and often does “prove “ himself to people who in sincerity of heart actually look for him, or are following him in the proper manner, but not to people who don't want him in their life. It's a bit like when Jesus spoke in parables – deliberately so they (who weren't keeping his messages) were not able to understand them. The privilege wasn't granted. But to those who practiced his teachings , he explained/revealed much...Jesus also said something along these lines in the Gospel, about mystical experiences only coming to those who do the "will of God". Perhaps it all really is under everyone's nose (ie the Truth)

 

[cynic]

which type of God do you believe in, and which do you think may also exist?

If I said that the name of the type of God I believe in, is sometimes referred to as the "tetragrammaton" (if only this device I am posting from would allow me to type the name out correctly in aramaic), then I would hope that you recognise, that whilst our religious philosophies do have some variances in biblical interpretation, that we are both still, very much believers in the same God.

 

[luutzu]

Just to be more clear, my view is that perhaps God wants to and often does “prove “ himself to people who in sincerity of heart actually look for him, or are following him in the proper manner, but not to people who don't want him in their life. It's a bit like when Jesus spoke in parables – deliberately so they (who weren't keeping his messages) were not able to understand them. The privilege wasn't granted. But to those who practiced his teachings , he explained/revealed much...Jesus also said something along these lines in the Gospel, about mystical experiences only coming to those who do the "will of God". Perhaps it all really is under everyone's nose (ie the Truth)

I was looking for God in my HS years. I joined a Church Youth Group and all that. Yea, alright, looking for girls and maybe god too, but if God was there I'd be cool with it

I think it's best to do right by yourself and by other people. Just treat them fairly and be honest (not too honest, but fair enough honest) in your dealings.

Do that and if there's a God he'll like you; if there isn't a God, good people around will tend to feel sorry for you and tap your back a bit so you'd feel better after being screwed by someone you were good and honest to.

 

[cynic]

So a bird breaking an exit sign convinced you God exists?

It was still a pretty confusing sign to give though. I mean, breaking an Exit sign... does that mean He tells you to NOT Exit, i.e. don't think of exiting because the option is broken so don't do it. OR, exit, exit hard, so hard it breaks the sign.

Just realised that it was a dark period so exit now have a different meaning. So just in case, don't exit dude, the forum is more fun with you. [see, I could also talk both ways, like God and other Oracles ]

I was asking if it was possible for me to cease to exist, i.e. exit my current life and cease to be forevermore. The answer was very easy to interpret, when the word exit lay shattered into several pieces on the road in front of me.
Sceptics will undoubtedly put it down to a confluence of coincidental events all of which can be easily explained with physics. The reality I am faced with is, that, I had never before, and never since, witnessed this specific event, and consider the timing of it (mere seconds after asking the question) to be too highly improbable to dismiss as mere coincidence.

 

[luutzu]

If I said that the name of the type of God I believe in, is sometimes referred to as the "tetragrammaton" (if only this device I am posting from would allow me to type the name out correctly in aramaic), then I would hope that you recognise, that whilst our religious philosophies do have some variances in biblical interpretation, that we are both still, very much believers in the same God.

Is tetragammon a Scientology god? Or David Smith's Mormon's god God?

 

[luutzu]

I was asking if it was possible for me to cease to exist, i.e. exit my current life and cease to be forevermore. The answer was very easy to interpret, when the word exit lay shattered into several pieces on the road in front of me.
Sceptics will undoubtedly put it down to a confluence of coincidental events all of which can be easily explained with physics. The reality I am faced with is, that, I had never before, and never since, witnessed this specific event, and consider the timing of it (mere seconds after asking the question) to be too highly improbable to dismiss as mere coincidence.

Don't know what to say so will just shut it.

But it's good that you didn't exit and are still with us.

 

[grah33]

I am convinced that at least one god must exist, but am unable at present to logically conclude, or exclude, the possibility of multiple deities.

However, for the present, I am content to believe in the one that answered my question.

Thanks for sharing your story. Are u Christian or a follower of Judaism or something else? Just curious do you believe that Jesus is God? U seem to maybe have a different belief that isn't common ?

 

[cynic]

Is tetragammon a Scientology god? Or David Smith's Mormon's god God?

It is said to be the aramaic spelling of the name that the Hebrew God gave when he spoke to Moses, and also said to have sounded similar to the aramaic expression: "I am who I am".

I haven't studied the book of mormon and like to keep some distance between myself and scientology, so I do not consider myself qualified to make specific claims about their perspective on god.

What I can say is that this god is present in any religion that includes the book of exodus as part of their doctrine.
I could also logically argue, that it is the god of any religion that includes the book of genesis, on account of the reference to the kabala (tree of knowledge) contained therein.

 

[cynic]

Thanks for sharing your story. Are u Christian or a follower of Judaism or something else? Just curious do you believe that Jesus is God? U seem to maybe have a different belief that isn't common ?

The name Jesus in aramaic is almost identical to the tetragrammaton. The insertion of a fifth aramaic letter, to make the name Jesus, changes the name for God, to a name meaning God incarnate.

I am very much a believer in the wisdom of many of the teachings of Christ, but prefer not to be asked to commit to a belief in everything that is claimed about him.
To me the wisdom of the message is what is most important, and whether he was an enlightened man, or god incarnate, isn't of great importance to me, because in my mind it doesn't alter the validity of the evident wisdom of many of his teachings. In fact, I am of the opinion, that questions of divine parenthood, virgin births, and veracity of miracles, fascinating as they can be, tend to distract people from the content of the teachings.

Edit: just noticed that I neglected to answer your question about my beliefs, they are a blend of components taken from a variety of theistic philosophies. I prefer not to surrender my volition to any single established religion for the reason that I very much subscribe to the belief in the saying that "there is no religion higher than truth", and do not believe that any of the current day philosophies can rightly claim to hold the monopoly on truth, divinity, salvation etc.