Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

You have clearly misunderstood the content of the argument!

The argument logically demonstrates that an uncaused causer must exist!

Here's a link to a video, in which Dr. Craig explains this, along with several other arguments for the existence of god:

Craig is a joke, I am not watching a 40 min video,

Why don’t you lay out the argument succinctly in your own words and I will point out the failures of it.

 

[wayneL]

I'm pretty sane. I'm sure there are plenty of others too. And in my world, there's no God.

Probably sane, but with a whole spectrum of cognitive biases, fallacious argument, and linear thinking. This is what you cannot conceive of God anything but in the perception certain humans created.

The prima facea case for my argument, follows:

a greedy GP would subscribe some pill to relieve a patient's suffering.. .all for a few bucks. God can end all the suffering with a wave of His hand... but nope. Let them experience the full spectrum, let them "choose".

He's worst than the Republicans and their "liberty" and "choice" bs.

 

[cynic]

Craig is a joke, I am not watching a 40 min video,

Why don’t you lay out the argument succinctly in your own words and I will point out the failures of it.

Your esteemed prophet Dawkins is afraid to debate him! But you somehow conclude that he is a joke!

Can you point me to any debates between Dr. Craig, and prominent atheists, where Dr. Craig wasn't successful in arguing the logical merits for his stance on theism?

 

[Value Collector]

Your esteemed prophet Dawkins is afraid to debate him! But you somehow conclude that he is a joke!

Can you point me to any debates between Dr. Craig, and prominent atheists, where Dr. Craig wasn't successful in arguing the logical merits for his stance on theism?

Dawkins is a biologist, Craig makes a living being a religious apologist that plays word games.

I would say there had never been a debate where Craig has been successful is arguing the logical merits for theism, because his whole stance is based on the kalam, which is flawed, and doesn’t even suggest a god exists.

For the benefit of others reading this thread, why don’t you lay out the three premises of the kalam, and I will point out where the special pleading is and the other flawed logic.

 

[luutzu]

Probably sane, but with a whole spectrum of cognitive biases, fallacious argument, and linear thinking. This is what you cannot conceive of God anything but in the perception certain humans created.

The prima facea case for my argument, follows:

So God does not follow a generally accepted definition, logic, argument etc. of what "good" is?

Common sense morality does not apply to God?

Must be, that's why countless of "his children" needlessly die each day and he just shrugs.

I'm mysterious boys. Can't save everyone in the world. Well... I can, just don't want to because.... because I have bigger plans and have my own reasons. Now shut up before I send you to Hell for eternity.

 

[cynic]

Dawkins is a biologist, Craig makes a living being a religious apologist that plays word games.

I would say there had never been a debate where Craig has been successful is arguing the logical merits for theism, because his whole stance is based on the kalam, which is flawed, and doesn’t even suggest a god exists.

For the benefit of others reading this thread, why don’t you lay out the three premises of the kalam, and I will point out where the special pleading is and the other flawed logic.

I have already posted a video amply covering this topic. Others, like yourself, are perfectly free to view it, should they so choose!

So how about you take the time to acquaint yourself with the argument first, so that we can then proceed to discuss any objections, you may have, from an informed (as opposed to misinformed) position.

 

[wayneL]

So God does not follow a generally accepted definition, logic, argument etc. of what "good" is?

Common sense morality does not apply to God?

Must be, that's why countless of "his children" needlessly die each day and he just shrugs.

I'm mysterious boys. Can't save everyone in the world. Well... I can, just don't want to because.... because I have bigger plans and have my own reasons. Now shut up before I send you to Hell for eternity.

You are still stuck in a human created paradigm, Grasshopper. You are thinking of God as an individual, with a personality.

**Perhaps** God is nothing like that at all?

It is counter-productive and futile to be angry at a specific Deity that exists only in dogma.

 

[SirRumpole]

You are still stuck in a human created paradigm, Grasshopper. You are thinking of God as an individual, with a personality.

**Perhaps** God is nothing like that at all?

It is counter-productive and futile to be angry at a specific Deity that exists only in dogma.

Indeed so. It was people that attributed all manner of good and evil to their Deity as a means of frightening both their own people into submission and their enemies into dread of the great and powerful being on the other side.

If god exists he may well have a plan that simply can not be fathomed by lesser beings such as ourselves.

 

[grah33]

flawed logic.

I'm mysterious boys. Can't save everyone in the world.

I have already

just getting back to you all...

Regards the miracle had a quick read of it (a few pages). If you really want I can scan the page and put it up, but only if you're serious of course (got stuff to do). Inbox me for the exact title of the book as I don't want my posts becoming searchable by people I know. The book in general is about the Catholic Charismatic (meaning charism/gift) Renewal, a supernatural phenomenon which started in the Church decades ago. Healings and other “action of the Holy Spirit” started happening, and still do within this movement. It's a unique movement within the Church, which started a few decades ago. It all started happening in the last 100 years to the wonder and surprise and delight of a few denominations. What was lost for centuries had returned to the Church ... And may have a role to play in the future as things get worse with increasing immorality everywhere. The western world (custodians of Christianity) are regressing to the habits of their ancient ancestors.

Imo a key thing is having it in oneself to seek God, if one wants to find Him. But many people wouldn't want him anyway, so they won't get any proof.


Regard the back healing and discs, I gave you the main details. But just to add Barry went to a healing service done by a priest called Fr Robert De Grandis (deceased )about 1992 , and the Lord revealed to him that a man Barry had the condition for 18 years. He spoke this in public in front of everyone, and they prayed for Barry, and amazingly enough Barry started walking. And scans were done later showing new discs coming from nowhere. Personally speaking, I know the author (a local speaker who also writes books ) and the woman who told me about it. Both witnessed it and the author knew him personally , and their witness to me is very credible.

 

[notting]

If god exists he may well have a plan that simply can not be fathomed by lesser beings such as ourselves.

So even if the retarded notion of 'God' was in any way attributed to something that existed, it would thus remain irrelevant, for that very reason quoted above.

This, sadly is the bottom line - the last resort - for the utterly exhausted and confused, for those desperately trying to hold on to their sense of 'Daddy is still looking after me' - needy - I don't want to grow up - affliction.

A person espousing the 'Super Self Adulating Dung Beetle above' would have no idea of what they are referring to, even if they were referring to something, because the 'Terrific Toad-fish in the sky,' is unfathomable to lesser beings such as irrational needy humans.

There for, taking any position on the 'Monstrous Megalomaniacal Mud Flapper' can only be wasting your own and everyone's time because - even if you have convinced yourself that you believe in the 'All Creating Cockroach,' you have no idea or means of knowing what it is, does or would do in any circumstance, as it's beyond your apprehension, so any notion you have of it can only be wrong!!!!

So why even entertain a seconds thought on the imaginary "Ever Attentive Antelope." That you, by your own admission, cannot apprehend even if it did exist?

Hence, remain bereft of plausibility on all possible counts, because clearly it's not your thing, and please continue the awkwardness of holding that as the beacon of your self worth.

Surely there is nothing better awaiting you, if you finally had the courage to let that incomplete, ever energy losing, thought bubble go?

 

[luutzu]

You are still stuck in a human created paradigm, Grasshopper. You are thinking of God as an individual, with a personality.

**Perhaps** God is nothing like that at all?

It is counter-productive and futile to be angry at a specific Deity that exists only in dogma.

Dont know about that Master Sifu. I thought God says He created Man in His image. Gave him his moral law and religious theatre.

So if human morality and reason is not from God; or from God but He has a different standard, then how can human be judged by God as having done good or evil?

i.e. human's own judgement of good and evil is taught by God, used by God and accepted everywhere.

 

[SirRumpole]

So why even entertain a seconds thought on the imaginary "Ever Attentive Antelope." That you, by your own admission, cannot apprehend even if it did exist?

So you are saying that everything we don't understand doesn't exist ?

We don't understand the conflict between quantum theory and gravity but it's still there. We may understand it one day, or perhaps solving that problem will introduce more problems.

If you think that this discussion is a waste of time then I suggest you do something else instead of wasting your finger muscles for nothing.

 

[notting]

So you are saying that everything we don't understand doesn't exist ?

No that is neither said nor implied.
Wishing something exists, that makes no sense at all, may be wishful thinking on your part however.

 

[Value Collector]

I have already posted a video amply covering this topic. Others, like yourself, are perfectly free to view it, should they so choose!

So how about you take the time to acquaint yourself with the argument first, so that we can then proceed to discuss any objections, you may have, from an informed (as opposed to misinformed) position.

Lol I know the arguement well, and it it in no way proves a god, it’s a silly arguement to make if you are trying to prove your god

 

[Value Collector]

just getting back to you all...

Regards the miracle had a quick read of it (a few pages). If you really want I can scan the page and put it up, but only if you're serious of course (got stuff to do). Inbox me for the exact title of the book as I don't want my posts becoming searchable by people I know. The book in general is about the Catholic Charismatic (meaning charism/gift) Renewal, a supernatural phenomenon which started in the Church decades ago. Healings and other “action of the Holy Spirit” started happening, and still do within this movement. It's a unique movement within the Church, which started a few decades ago. It all started happening in the last 100 years to the wonder and surprise and delight of a few denominations. What was lost for centuries had returned to the Church ... And may have a role to play in the future as things get worse with increasing immorality everywhere. The western world (custodians of Christianity) are regressing to the habits of their ancient ancestors.

Imo a key thing is having it in oneself to seek God, if one wants to find Him. But many people wouldn't want him anyway, so they won't get any proof.


Regard the back healing and discs, I gave you the main details. But just to add Barry went to a healing service done by a priest called Fr Robert De Grandis (deceased )about 1992 , and the Lord revealed to him that a man Barry had the condition for 18 years. He spoke this in public in front of everyone, and they prayed for Barry, and amazingly enough Barry started walking. And scans were done later showing new discs coming from nowhere. Personally speaking, I know the author (a local speaker who also writes books ) and the woman who told me about it. Both witnessed it and the author knew him personally , and their witness to me is very credible.

If I scanned a few pages of Spider-Man comic, would you believe in Spider-Man?

What work have you done to independently verify the claims made in your book?

You are suffering from confirmation bias, you simply look for things to prove your pre existing ideas, and don’t fact check them.

 

[Value Collector]

You are still stuck in a human created paradigm, Grasshopper. You are thinking of God as an individual, with a personality.

**Perhaps** God is nothing like that at all?

It is counter-productive and futile to be angry at a specific Deity that exists only in dogma.

Actually a few of us have been asking the believers to define their god, and then provide evidence for its existence.

Why don’t you define your god by telling us what you believe and why you believe it?

 

[Tisme]

Why don’t you define your god by telling us what you believe and why you believe it?

That's easy:- it's the same one who thought bubbles you when you need to bounce issues around, the same one that stops you from going a bridge too far with moral and ethical issues, the same one who progresses you through life with self worth, wonder, shame, dread and self preservation.

We all have the God gene and many fight it, but they can't win because the inner argument is the dilemma between the superficial antipathy to being answerable to one's own conscience and the deep rooted spiritual kernal. Everytime we mentally pat ourselves on the back for e.g. posting irrefutable contrary dogma about another poster's input we are are talking to ourselves and that kernal.

Organised religion is another issue, but I am of the belief that none of us can honestly deny we do have thoughts of alternate consciousness, transwotever, higher purpose, etc and most importantly a non dimensional fairy that goes with us wherever we go to give us the comfort that we always have someone to talk to and provide company in times of need.

 

[SirRumpole]

Why don’t you define your god by telling us what you believe and why you believe it?

This has all been done before, so why bother to do it again ?

I don't think it's my job to convince you by providing proof that you simply dismiss, it doesn't matter to me whether you think there is a god or not but it seems to matter to you that other people shouldn't believe that there is a god, so why don't you give you evidence for non existence ?

 

[notting]

Any way.
I woke up this morning feeling a bit sick.
I thought, 'what is the point of destroying someones belief in something if you leave them with nothing as an alternative, bereft of meaning and hope so to speak.' That would be a horrible thing to do even if your position is rationally correct.
So then I thought well I should offer up something that hopefully may fill any vacuums left by my mean spiritedness -

 

[cynic]

Lol I know the arguement well, and it it in no way proves a god, it’s a silly arguement to make if you are trying to prove your god

From your responses to this argument, I sincerely doubt your claim to knowing "the arguement well".

But if you truly believe that it is silly, then how about you explain to me how it is that you arrived at this silliness conclusion!