Religion preying on our youth

[nizar]

I found this email while i was cleaning up my inbox. It was sent to me sometime ago. I think it may be relevant for discussion here.

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the
problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new
Christian students to stand and.....

Professor : You are a Christian, aren't you, son?

Student : Yes, sir.

Prof : So you believe in God?

Student : Absolutely, sir.

Prof : Is God good?

Student : Sure.

Prof : Is God all-powerful?

Student : Yes.

Prof : My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.
Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is
this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof : You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God
good?

Student : Yes.

Prof : Is Satan good?

Student : No.

Prof : Where does Satan come from?

Student : From...God...

Prof : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student : Yes.

Prof : Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?

Student : Yes.

Prof : So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)

Prof : Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible
things exist in the world, don't they?

Student :Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?

(Student has no answer.)

Prof : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the
world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?

Student : No, sir.

Prof : Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

Student : No , sir.

Prof : Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have
you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof : Yet you still believe in Him?

Student : Yes.

Prof : According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science
says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof : Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof : Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

Prof : Yes.

Student : No sir. There isn't.

(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega
heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything
called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.
Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of
it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?


Prof : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.
You can have low
light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no
light constantly, you have
nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If
it were you would be able
to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Prof : So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof : Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there
is life and then there
is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as
something finite,
something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It
uses electricity and
magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To
view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is
not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor.
Do you teach your
students that they evolved from a monkey?

Prof : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of
course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the
argument is going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove
that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your
opinion, sir? Are you not a
scientist but a preacher?

(The class is in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's
brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or
smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical,
stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)

Prof : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & God is FAITH. That is all
that keeps things moving & alive.

PS: "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another"

I love the conclusion: "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another"

 

[2020hindsight]

.. I think it may be relevant for discussion here. I love the conclusion: "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another"

Nizar, I enjoyed reading your answer but I dont see the answers to the questions asked ... let's assume that you are right - that the iron gets sharpened. I could as easily relate a story of when I asked a Physics professor "why does the volkswagen manual say that you should accelerate around corners" - he came back after a few days with the answer "you have to keep the traffic moving" !

Apart from the fact that it is all about negative steer and dynamic friction being less than static friction, (which neither he nor I understood at the time) ... it illustrates the point that Professors are only human as well.

Guess I could insist that the question be answered before moving on, but to be honest it really isnt that important - Bunyips story was
a) self contained,
b) had a moral, and was worth the telling, and
c) there was little or no point is claiming that he had misunderstood the person who made the claim that prayers for rain would help.

We should all probably move on, without gettin bogged in the detail.

 

[nelly]

Thanks for that nizar.........
Cheerful

 

[Sean K]

My God! Here we go again. The govenment using the tax payer dollar to subsidise schools to employ chaplains to provide 'spiritual guidance' (read brainwashing). Don't we live in a secular society? The sooner government stays completely out of the religious game, and religion stays behind closed doors and only accessable if you ask for it, the better we'll all be.

I wonder how much Sheik Taj in a-bin al-Hilarious has been handed to incite hatred against mainstream Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20667879-1702,00.html

 

[Sean K]

At least the Democrats are thinking logically.

Plan is inappropriate, say Democrats
October 30, 2006

The federal Government's plan to employ chaplains at schools across Australia is another example of an inappropriate marriage between religion and politics, the Australian Democrats say.

Prime Minister John Howard announced the $90 million program yesterday, saying it was entirely voluntary and not designed to favour chaplains of any one religion.

Under the program, which aims to provide grief counselling and spiritual guidance to students, all schools will be able to apply for subsidies of up to $20,000 a year to employ a chaplain.

However, Democrats leader Lyn Allison said the move risked blurring the line between church and state.

"We say government schools should be secular and this money would be much better spent on school counsellors or youth workers," Ms Allison told ABC radio today.

"Essentially, what's happening is the prime minister is asking taxpayers to fund what is essentially a religious activity."

 

[Julia]

Kennas

I understand your objections, but there are already many schools which employ chaplains. Through my involvement with Youth Mentoring, I've met the two blokes at the two local State High Schools, and believe me, religion is not what they're on about. They're realistic and tuned into teenagers' problems. They will answer questions if a student is into religion but don't instigate any discussion about that.

Last year I was mentoring a 15 year old girl who had some very "challenging" behaviours. She was consistently suspended for some pretty outrageous acts. However, she declared that she "loved God", so when she was in need of someone to talk to at school she chose the Chaplain rather than the counsellor.

They're not walking round in clerical garb etc. and, from the way they are greeted warmly by the students on the campus, and from comments from the teachers plus my own contact, I think these people can only have a positive effect for the schools. (Well, that is if they are all like the two I know.)

Julia

 

[Rafa]

The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.

end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...

Frankly, even tho I am no Howard lover... i applaud this move to put some substance and morality back into the education system.

I think most people are seeing the results of the policies that was brought in previously re
1. politcal correctness,
2. all this crap about there is no right or wrong, its up to you concience, bla bla bla...
3. etc...

and the results of these policies are looking right at them in the form of their kids...
and the results are there to see right now with the nutcase muslim preachers getting away with talkin utter tripe,
and the results will be seen in the next fed election when even more votes leave the nothing parties like the democrats!

The beginning of the end of all civilisations is when they forget their roots and their core beliefs and end up standing for nothing!

 

[zed327]

Religion sucks! Keep it out of our school and let our kids free think and not get manipulated when they are young and easy to twist thier minds.

 

[Sean K]

The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.

end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...

Frankly, even tho I am no Howard lover... i applaud this move to put some substance and morality back into the education system.

I think most people are seeing the results of the policies that was brought in previously re
1. politcal correctness,
2. all this crap about there is no right or wrong, its up to you concience, bla bla bla...
3. etc...

and the results of these policies are looking right at them in the form of their kids...
and the results are there to see right now with the nutcase muslim preachers getting away with talkin utter tripe,
and the results will be seen in the next fed election when even more votes leave the nothing parties like the democrats!

The beginning of the end of all civilisations is when they forget their roots and their core beliefs and end up standing for nothing!

Rafa, should it be religion that brings this morality to our children? Or, why don't we teach general good values that lead to a better society without having to attach dogma to it.

Not all religion is 'moral' as you have presumed.

The beginning of the end of civilisation is when we stop thinking freely and cling to ancient values and traditions based on cultures developed in the Middle East 2-3000 years ago. Yes, that's where Christianity, Judaism and Islam all come from. Asia.

 

[stockGURU]

Religions place should be in the home and the church (or in religious schools), not in what should be a secular state funded education system.

Keep religion out of our public school system.

 

[Space Cadet]

agrees with Rafa

The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.

end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...

Frankly, even tho I am no Howard lover... i applaud this move to put some substance and morality back into the education system.

I think most people are seeing the results of the policies that was brought in previously re
1. politcal correctness,
2. all this crap about there is no right or wrong, its up to you concience, bla bla bla...
3. etc...

and the results of these policies are looking right at them in the form of their kids...
and the results are there to see right now with the nutcase muslim preachers getting away with talkin utter tripe,
and the results will be seen in the next fed election when even more votes leave the nothing parties like the democrats!

The beginning of the end of all civilisations is when they forget their roots and their core beliefs and end up standing for nothing!

 

[professor_frink]

The biggest problem in society now days is thats kids have no one to guide them at all.... They get all their guidance from TV, media and magazines... no dicipline and authority to teach them whats right and wrong.

end result: uncontrolable classes, substance abuse, high suicide count, videos such as the werrribee one, high crime rate, etc...

Frankly, even tho I am no Howard lover... i applaud this move to put some substance and morality back into the education system.

I think most people are seeing the results of the policies that was brought in previously re
1. politcal correctness,
2. all this crap about there is no right or wrong, its up to you concience, bla bla bla...
3. etc...

and the results of these policies are looking right at them in the form of their kids...
and the results are there to see right now with the nutcase muslim preachers getting away with talkin utter tripe,
and the results will be seen in the next fed election when even more votes leave the nothing parties like the democrats!

The beginning of the end of all civilisations is when they forget their roots and their core beliefs and end up standing for nothing!

Don't you watch 60 minutes Rafa- Attachment parenting is the way of the future! No need for religion now- children are to be breast fed until they're 10, must sleep with their mother till they're a teenager, and they aren't to be disciplined......ever. It's the only way to raise well adjusted kids with no mental problems whatsoever

 

[Rafa]

Rafa, should it be religion that brings this morality to our children? Or, why don't we teach general good values that lead to a better society without having to attach dogma to it.

Not all religion is 'moral' as you have presumed.

The beginning of the end of civilisation is when we stop thinking freely and cling to ancient values and traditions based on cultures developed in the Middle East 2-3000 years ago. Yes, that's where Christianity, Judaism and Islam all come from. Asia.

These general good values you talk about, all stem from religion. (incidentally, you forgot the other religions that stem from India... Hinduism, Buddhism, etc)

The ancient values and traditions you talk about... I for one am not big on ancient tradition and ritual, especially if you do it as a matter of routine rather than meaning.

However, the core values of 'respect', 'love thy neighbour', 'do good unto others', all the stuff that you feel you need to teach kids, all comes from religion.

You take that out, you take out the reason to be good and do good things, Things like Karma, Heaven, etc...

I am not advocating the dogmatic following of any one particular religion, or even that everyone needs to beleive in one GOD, many Gods, or even no GOD at all!....

But I am not about to discount the role the many religions played over the last 7000 years ... knowing the the alternative expreriment that has been in operation in the last two decades is proving to be such a spectacular disaster... (and now the Prof tells me about this new method on 60 minutes... well, GOD help us all!!! ) Its amazing how clever we think we all are, just cause we've invented the aeroplane and the mobile phone!!!)

Still, if the majority of us are happy with that, thats fine, VOTE DEMOCRATS! Just don't complain about the 'how back in the old days when you could leave your house door open, etc, etc...

 

[Sean K]

These general good values you talk about, all stem from religion. (incidentally, you forgot the other religions that stem from India... Hinduism, Buddhism, etc)

The ancient values and traditions you talk about... I for one am not big on ancient tradition and ritual, especially if you do it as a matter of routine rather than meaning.

However, the core values of 'respect', 'love thy neighbour', 'do good unto others', all the stuff that you feel you need to teach kids, all comes from religion.

You take that out, you take out the reason to be good and do good things, Things like Karma, Heaven, etc...

I am not advocating the dogmatic following of any one particular religion, or even that everyone needs to beleive in one GOD, many Gods, or even no GOD at all!....

But I am not about to discount the role the many religions played over the last 7000 years ... knowing the the alternative expreriment that has been in operation in the last two decades is proving to be such a spectacular disaster...

Still, if the majority of us are happy with that, thats fine, VOTE DEMOCRATS! Just don't complain about the 'how back in the old days when you could leave your house door open, etc, etc...

Your argument fails because religious values did not spring from thin air, nor God. They wre developed from existing cultural laws of the day. Religion is based on culture, not the other way around. Your premise is a common misconception which can't be used as a supporting argument to belief in the supernatural.

 

[Rafa]

Your argument fails because religious values did not spring from thin air, nor God. They wre developed from existing cultural laws of the day. Religion is based on culture, not the other way around. Your premise is a common misconception which can't be used as a supporting argument to belief in the supernatural.

I disagree with that...I highly doubt that Christianity was based on existing Jewish culture...

I mean, most Jews thought Jesus was an idiot... cause the culture at the time was an 'eye for and eye'... stone the criminal... He preached the exact opposite, including 'don't waste your time on empty rituals imposed by rabbi's' and was subsequently executed for that! Hardly the work of someone trying to fit into the existing culture.

Christianity was a new way to live..... It helped create a new culture, the one you reside in today, that gave you the freedom to do the thiings you wanted, within moral boundaries of right and wrong.

Yes, Humans then took religion and formed their own establishments and institutions around this, and have screwed things up again, but thats another story...

But regardless, it helped create our culture and civilisation that you now take for granted.

So, when you talk about religion and culture, and as to what came first, I think your missing the point (like the chicken and the egg)... They are intertwined... One cannot exists without the other...

 

[Sean K]

I disagree with that...I highly doubt that Christianity was based on existing Jewish culture...

I mean, most Jews thought Jesus was an idiot... cause the culture at the time was an 'eye for and eye'... stone the criminal... He preached the exact opposite, including 'don't waste your time on empty rituals imposed by rabbi's' and was subsequently executed for that! Hardly the work of someone trying to fit into the existing culture.

Christianity was a new way to live..... It helped create a new culture, the one you reside in today, that gave you the freedom to do the thiings you wanted, within moral boundaries of right and wrong.

Yes, Humans then took religion and formed their own establishments and institutions around this, and have screwed things up again, but thats another story...

But regardless, it helped create our culture and civilisation that you now take for granted.

So, when you talk about religion and culture, and as to what came first, I think your missing the point (like the chicken and the egg)... They are intertwined... One cannot exists without the other...

Rafa, I think you'll find all of the 'religions of the book', ie Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are actually sects of the Cult of Abraham. They all worship his God: Yahwah.

The basis of the three religions (apart from one God) are the Ten Commandments (Islam puts a slightly different spin on it) which are part of The Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament.

From Wikipedia:

The Ten Commandments, or Decalogue, are a list of religious and moral imperatives which, according to the Hebrew Bible, were written by God and given to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of two stone tablets. They feature prominently in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

[Sean K]

Oh, and I might be convinced at some point that religion and culture are intertwined somehow, but at the moment, I still think culture comes first. We invented religion and God in our own image, not the other way around. IMO of course!

 

[Rafa]

Oh, and I might be convinced at some point that religion and culture are intertwined somehow, but at the moment, I still think culture comes first. We invented religion and God in our own image, not the other way around. IMO of course!

Fair enough, as i said, i am not fussed whether you belive in one GOD, many GODS or no GOD... (eg Buddhism...)... Religion is more that just that... is a way to live.

The basis of the three religions (apart from one God) are the Ten Commandments (Islam puts a slightly different spin on it) which are part of The Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament.

Christianity is more that just the Old Testament Abraham stories... That is still something that is used by fundamnetalist christians, muslims and jews to justify getting women to wear hijabs, amongst other crazy things!

I highly doubt you'll be able to fine one quote from Jesus (who incidentally founded Christianity, and not Abraham, etc...), when talking about a way to live, that is remotely close to the popular culture at the time... which included blaming women for seducing men... something the fundametal islamist are still carrying on about!

Infact, when he was asked quite clearly, as to how to live life... he said forget about Moses's commandments.... Just follow these two... Love God and Love they neighbour!

As a christian, I am still struggling to work out why the old testament is even part of the bible.... I guess its is more a history lesson, if anything...

 

[Space Cadet]

IMO of course I think Rafa has it the right way round.

The Ten Commandments, which teach us what values and morals we should live by came first and then various cultures, idealogies etc have flowed from then over the ages.

The world is a mess now because over the centuries various groups have either rejected the Ten Commandments alltogether, developed their own agendas and idealogies and misinterpreted and twisted whatever scriptures suit their cause to justify their actions and views.

Maybe if the whole world just took a deep breath and went back to basics then eventually our world will not self destruct as it appears it will - sooner rather than later. I think we're not far off the point of no return at the moment.

 

[Sean K]

Fair enough, as i said, i am not fussed whether you belive in one GOD, many GODS or no GOD... (eg Buddhism...)... Religion is more that just that... is a way to live.

Christianity is more that just the Old Testament Abraham stories... That is still something that is used by fundamnetalist christians, muslims and jews to justify getting women to wear hijabs, amongst other crazy things!

I highly doubt you'll be able to fine one quote from Jesus (who incidentally founded Christianity, and not Abraham, etc...), when talking about a way to live, that is remotely close to the popular culture at the time... which included blaming women for seducing men... something the fundametal islamist are still carrying on about!

Infact, when he was asked quite clearly, as to how to live life... he said forget about Moses's commandments.... Just follow these two... Love God and Love they neighbour!

As a christian, I am still struggling to work out why the old testament is even part of the bible.... I guess its is more a history lesson, if anything...

Yeah, the Old Testament is a pretty scary read. The New Testament is Christianity, and yes, it's all about love and forgiveness, not fire and brimstone. The reason for this is the type of society people were living in at the time. It suited a purpose. The Tribe of Moses, needed fire and brimstone to control the people under extremely harsh conditions, and to fight wars to take their land as ganted to them by God. Yahweh, at that time, was actually the God of War and just one of the Gods of the Elohim. (Exactly when he became the One God is unclear) He suited Moseses cause in leading the Israelites out of The Sinai. He was a motivational tool more than anything.

I'm not actually sure if Jesus officially formed 'Christianity'. Christianity is based on him, but it wasn't until the Council of Nicea that Christain doctrine was formalised. Up till then it was a whole mix of ideas with many contradictions. (Haven't you read the Da Vinci Code? )