Religion IS crazy!

[pavilion103]

It's immoral to pile your sin on a scapegoat. It is immoral to think you can free yourself from your crimes just by asking a god for forgiveness. It's immoral to think that anyone else except the victims of your crimes can offer you forgiveness. It's immoral to think once you have gods forgiveness you are free and clear and have no responsibility to make true amends with the victims. the one this lady seems to think she is ok because she asked gods foregiveness sickens me, they way she says shes moved on and it doesn't matter. YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4qCSFF11UY

Genuine repentance isn't a casual excusing yourself from your sin.

I'm so glad that God judges by our heart and not out actions and that a GENUINE change of heart will never be ignored by God. But repentance is a turning away from sin, not just saying "ah who cares".

I'm glad it is the one who sees our HEARTS and MOTIVES who is the ultimate judge, not some judge that has no idea and has to guess!

 

[pavilion103]

Then why is it that i have so much trouble believeing there is a god

Maybe the same reason why people struggle to grasp an understanding of any field eg trading. Either they aren't looking for a profitable strategy but a quick dollar, not looking in the right places for the right information or they choose to ignore certain information in favor of already held ideas, not willing to pay the price of what it will cost them etc.

It doesn't mean that profitable trading strategies don't exist. Also doesn't mean that anyone at all can't be profitable at trading. Also doesn't mean that the opportunity to be profitable isn't open to everyone if they pursue it diligently.

The information and philosophical reasoning is all there plain and clear. But just like trading, maybe you need to genuinely look to uncover it.

 

[Value Collector]

Genuine repentance isn't a casual excusing yourself from your sin.

I'm so glad that God judges by our heart and not out actions and that a GENUINE change of heart will never be ignored by God. But repentance is a turning away from sin, not just saying "ah who cares".

I'm glad it is the one who sees our HEARTS and MOTIVES who is the ultimate judge, not some judge that has no idea and has to guess!

It does nothing to help the victim though, and in my opinion the victim is the only one who can truly give you forgiveness.

Not to mention that you seem to think accepting jesus to scape goat your sins is more important than your actions and the goodness of your heart. You think someone can live an evil life destroying lives and as long as they have a change of heart and accept gives they are fine, where as I can live a life doing good and being a good person but if I am not convinced of Jesus I go to hell. there is no justice in that.

How is remaining unconvinced, deserving of eternal hell fire

 

[Chris45]

Nope, its the absence of a religion. Off is not a TV channel and Bald is not a hair colour.

"Off is not a TV channel" - Off is equivalent to brain dead. Are you suggesting atheists are brain dead?
"Snow" is an analogue TV channel not receiving an intelligent message ... that's a better analogy for atheists.

"Bald is not a hair colour" - Bald is a head of extremely short hair ... a good analogy for the thinking of atheists.

And so the debate continues to go around in circles ad nauseam.

However you want to spin it, atheism has become a religion ... a religion of hate towards theists. It is a strong belief system or doctrine that there is no God, which is exactly what Satan wants.

Atheism has its church: http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/09/godless-congregation-coming-to-the-city-of-churches/
Atheism has its messiahs: http://www.atheistmessiah.com/ plus the late Christopher Hitchens
Atheism has its preachers: http://www.richarddawkins.net/
Atheism has its bible: http://atheistbible.net/
Atheism's message it hatred towards Christians: http://www.atheistmessiah.com/march_against_Bush.JPG

Atheism has all of the hallmarks of a religious cult, and a very dangerous one at that. Don't try and pass yourselves off as gentle, loving, caring people who just want to live and let live.

The more strident atheists want to push their anti-Christian ideology down everyone's throat and deny young people from atheist environments the opportunity to hear Christ's message.

How can you support people's right to practice their religion but deny them the opportunity to learn about it in the first place in schools, which are the only places most children learn anything about their world (apart from Facebook and Twitter)? How can someone practice something they know nothing about?

You don't seem to have got the message that there is a spiritual battle for our souls raging around us, and everyone who has heard Christ's message has to make a choice between God and Satan. Sitting on the fence is a win for Satan and by subscribing to the atheist's views, you are playing right into Satan's hands.

Atheists continually raise the example of 911 as theism at work. Theist religions are not perfect, no human organization is, and because everyone has been given the free will to choose between good and evil, some will inevitably be seduced by Satan to commit evil.

Not to mention that you seem to think accepting jesus to scape goat your sins is more important than your actions and the goodness of your heart. You think someone can live an evil life destroying lives and as long as they have a change of heart and accept gives they are fine, where as I can live a life doing good and being a good person but if I am not convinced of Jesus I go to hell. there is no justice in that.

Do you really think that if a violent criminal says "sorry" in his last dying breath, he will go straight to heaven? Do you really think God is that stupid? As Pav said, God can see into everyone's heart and soul and he knows how sincere one is when one claims repentance. God is not a fool.

We now have strong evidence for reincarnation (google "reincarnation research") and the Bible talks about "eternal life" (John 3:16). The Bible is short on details but "eternal life" may involve being given a second chance via reincarnation before final acceptance into Heaven.

Re. Luke 14:26-27, for an explanation, try reading http://christianity.net.au/questions/luke-14-26

 

[bellenuit]

Where in the bible does it say all this evilness?? There is none.

Where is this mass murder? The bible doesn't consider war to be murder. So you can rule that out. There is nowhere in the bible where God issues an order to commit mass murder.

Repeating what cbc wrote: There is nowhere in the bible where God issues an order to commit mass murder.

Maybe you should read the Bible and 1 Samuel 15 is just one of many examples .........

1 Samuel 15 - New International Version -(emphasis mine)

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the Lord all that night.

etc.....

 

[lindsayf]

there will of course be a reply that offers an interpretation of this passage that will somehow conveniently exonerate god from this slaughter.

 

[bellenuit]

Exodus 12:29-51 (New International Version)

29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.


Exodus 21:20-21 King James Version (KJV)

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.


Exodus 32:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.


Leviticus 26:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.


Numbers 31:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

 

[Value Collector]

Maybe the same reason why people struggle to grasp an understanding of any field eg trading. Either they aren't looking for a profitable strategy but a quick dollar, not looking in the right places for the right information or they choose to ignore certain information in favor of already held ideas, not willing to pay the price of what it will cost them etc.

But you said god puts the knowledge in our hearts and so we all already should know, why is it that i doubt the religious stories.

also if god really cared and wanted us to believe, why does he hide and why did he make the world appear to have formed in a way that goes against the creation story in e bible.

 

[pavilion103]

But you said god puts the knowledge in our hearts and so we all already should know, why is it that i doubt the religious stories. also if god really cared and wanted us to believe, why does he hide and why did he make the world appear to have formed in a way that goes against the creation story in e bible.

He doesn't make the world appear that way at all.

You only have to study anthropology to see that people know inside themselves that there is some form of creator.
But people like yourself can block out that inherent knowledge by turning away from it. Conditioning, choice etc

Like anything you have to pursue it

 

[cynic]

Can You explain how those things rely on religion, and rely on people believing in the scriptures or rely on the truth of the super natural claims. Those things are good examples of things that do not require religion, Infact there are good examples of how religion has held those things back.

Must I repeat Myself?!!

I believe it is possible to gradually cleanse the waters and remove some of the mud. Before doing so, one needs sufficient wisdom to discern the babies from the bathwater. Whereas awareness of our personal fallibility generally gives rise to the prudence that limits mistakes, the arrogant presumption of "knowing" better than others tends to give rise to hasty actions with potentially harmful consequences for all concerned.

As you are already aware, mankind is enjoying many good things that have arisen from a variety of the religious pursuits of mankind.

Whether such things might have been achievable absent religion is a matter of which I am sincerely doubtful and choose not to speculate.

My preference is to work with the best of our accumulated knowledge base in the expectation of gradually improving it.

Seriously?!!

Have you already forgotten the historical origins of surgery and pharmacology?

Can you see how my statement about personal fallibility, and the actions taken by one arrogantly presuming to "know" better, applies to the sentiments you're expressing?

Firstly, the definition of religion has already been provided during our discourse on another thread.

Secondly, I make no claim to the infallibility of any religion, and whilst I prefer some religions over others (science happens to be right up there amongst my favourites), I endeavour to make optimal use of all available knowledge irrespective of origin.

Thirdly, the foundations of our modern chemistry, mathematics and physics were pioneered by mystics engaged in the investigation of purportedly "supernatural"* concepts.

(*Please note: I do not personally subscribe to the view that anything occurs outside of nature.The word "supernatural" is often misconstrued as phenomena for which contemporary science is unable to proffer explanation. In the interests of expediency, I will usually entertain such words in the given context despite improper usage.)

 

[Value Collector]

However you want to spin it, atheism has become a religion ... a religion of hate towards theists. It is a strong belief system or doctrine that there is no God, which is exactly what Satan wants

.

Nope, its just a rejection of the idea that a god exists, everything else is something else.

Atheists dont hate religious people, we just think your a bit silly. The only thing we hate is having religious nonsense being pushed onto society through schools or government, we will never stop you building church's or having groups and teaching your kids what you want. We will step in if you cross a line and are harming children openly though

Atheism has all of the hallmarks of a religious cult, and a very dangerous one at that. Don't try and pass yourselves off as gentle, loving, caring people who just want to live and let live.

Most of us are gentle and loving. There is no cult. And we are happy to live and let live, but part of living and let live is not having the religious shove their ideas on us.

The more strident atheists want to push their anti-Christian ideology down everyone's throat and deny young people from atheist environments the opportunity to hear Christ's message.

If your beating a man with a stick, and i take your stick away and tell you that you can't beat him, i am not denying you rights, i am protecting the other guys rights not to be beaten. You can have your stick you can worship your stick, but dont bring it into government and schools.

How can you support people's right to practice their religion but deny them the opportunity to learn about it in the first place in schools, which are the only places most children learn anything about their world (apart from Facebook and Twitter)? How can someone practice something they know nothing about?

So would you be happy for the Hindu and Muslim religions to be taught as fact in schools to your kids, No. So you should understand why people of other faiths and those of no faith in religion would object to having your religion taught.

By all means have your faith schools, but in public schools where many different faiths attend along with those of no faith, it is wrong to pick one faith and teach it over another.

I am happy for a broad based history of religions be taught, where kids learn the backgrounds of a range of religions, but preaching Jesus, or Muhammad or Buddha or any other as fact is wrong

You don't seem to have got the message that there is a spiritual battle for our souls raging around us, and everyone who has heard Christ's message has to make a choice between God and Satan. Sitting on the fence is a win for Satan and by subscribing to the atheist's views, you are playing right into Satan's hands.

I dont believe in satan either, hearing you talk about this battle for souls is just like hearing somebody talk about Spider-Man or Star Wars, i dont believe its a real thing. I dont even believe in souls to start with.

Atheists continually raise the example of 911 as theism at work. Theist religions are not perfect, no human organization is, and because everyone has been given the free will to choose between good and evil, some will inevitably be seduced by Satan to commit evil.

Yes i do blame theist religions for 911 and the others, if those guys were not raised to believe in the after life they wouldn't have done it, simple as that. all it would have taken was a little doubt in their mind and they wouldn't have done it. Doubt is good, when you know, that you know, that you know there is a god and what he wants, you can do all sorts of crazy, and no one can convince you otherwise.

Do you really think that if a violent criminal says "sorry" in his last dying breath, he will go straight to heaven? Do you really think God is that stupid? As Pav said, God can see into everyone's heart and soul and he knows how sincere one is when one claims repentance. God is not a fool

.

I am not talking about a fake sorry, i mean the guy is really sorry, genuinely regrets raping and killing the dozens of children. According to you and pav god lets him into heaven without punishment.

However, if one of his victims, after living a destroyed life, dies without ever believing, in Jesus, or chose another religion over Christianity, he goes to hell, regardless of whether he was a good person or not.

We now have strong evidence for reincarnation (google "reincarnation research") and the Bible talks about "eternal life" (John 3:16). The Bible is short on details but "eternal life" may involve being given a second chance via reincarnation before final acceptance into Heaven.

Nope there is no evidence of reincarnation

 

[Value Collector]

He doesn't make the world appear that way at all.

You only have to study anthropology to see that people know inside themselves that there is some form of creator.
But people like yourself can block out that inherent knowledge by turning away from it. Conditioning, choice etc

Like anything you have to pursue it

He does make it look billions of years old, not the 6000 years some bible scholars claim. Also he made it appear as if was formed through the gradual accretion of matter left behind from an exploding star rather than just being snapped into existence in a day, and he made it look like the diversity of life bloomed over many millions of years, not a single day.

 

[cbc]

Exodus 12:29-51 (New International Version)

29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.


Exodus 21:20-21 King James Version (KJV)

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.


Exodus 32:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Leviticus 26:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.


Numbers 31:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Well... Well... Well.. Belenuit. Good to see you up to a bit of ol fashion bible study.



Like I said. Any death relating to war isn't murder. So you rule a few verses out there.

God is a God of justice. So if you sin, like a few examples there, then people get put to death / cursed. That's the way things were back then. Mbey you consider the death penalty murder. I don't. I consider it the strongest form of justice.

You also need to understand that once people left god or weren't seeking god that was punishable by death. In fact, seeking other Gods was considered by God to be very evil. Most of the times the result was death.

Soooooooo. Keep digging belenuit. See if you can track down some verses involving death in the bible, and I mean where no sin had been committed.

 

[Value Collector]

YET AGAIN showing no concern for urself.


"I don't want to go to heaven cauz this person is there"

I dont actually believe heaven is real, so its irrelevant whether i want to go there or not, but based on the way the religious describe it, I dont think there will be many people there anyway, certainly most of the worlds greatest thinkers will not make it there. So it would seem its going to be a place full of endless worship for a tyrannical egotistical god, filled with gullible people willing to believe fairy tales. You can count me out.

 

[pavilion103]

He does make it look billions of years old, not the 6000 years some bible scholars claim. Also he made it appear as if was formed through the gradual accretion of matter left behind from an exploding star rather than just being snapped into existence in a day, and he made it look like the diversity of life bloomed over many millions of years, not a single day.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want.

 

[Value Collector]

Like I said. Any death relating to war isn't murder.

Not true, genocide is murder. War is not a valid reason for genocide and rape.

Any general who ordered his army to carry out those actions would be put on trail and sentenced to death or life in prison.

it just goes to show that you people can justify all sorts of immoral actions, as long as the orders come from a god.

The only thing is gods probably dont exist, so you have all these people committing crazy actions involving murder and thinking its ok because their imaginary friend is a god, i am lucky that my imaginary friend was a puppy, and i eventually grew up, but you guys are adults still walking around thinking your imaginary friend is real, and the worst part is you think he is a god.

 

[cynic]

He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.

I'm not sure what to make of this one!!

Is Isaac a thinker?

Does heaven exist?

If so will Isaac Newton make the cut?

 

[cynic]

Not true, genocide is murder. War is not a valid reason for genocide and rape.

Any general who ordered his army to carry out those actions would be put on trail and sentenced to death or life in prison.

it just goes to show that you people can justify all sorts of immoral actions, as long as the orders come from a god.

The only thing is gods probably dont exist, so you have all these people committing crazy actions involving murder and thinking its ok because their imaginary friend is a god, i am lucky that my imaginary friend was a puppy, and i eventually grew up, but you guys are adults still walking around thinking your imaginary friend is real, and the worst part is you think he is a god.

Did you forget to feed your puppy?

They usually die if you don't feed them.
(Poor neglected innocent little puppy!)

 

[bellenuit]

Well... Well... Well.. Belenuit. Good to see you up to a bit of ol fashion bible study.

I have probably read more or the bible, studied more of the bible and understand more of the bible than you or Pav. That is why I am an atheist. I can see what it is saying about the God of Abraham, not some make believe story that you want to placate yourself with of someone all loving and all forgiving.

Like I said. Any death relating to war isn't murder. So you rule a few verses out there.

What a pathetic apologist and total hypocrite.

God is a God of justice. So if you sin, like a few examples there, then people get put to death / cursed. That's the way things were back then. Mbey you consider the death penalty murder. I don't. I consider it the strongest form of justice.

You also need to understand that once people left god or weren't seeking god that was punishable by death. In fact, seeking other Gods was considered by God to be very evil. Most of the times the result was death.

Soooooooo. Keep digging belenuit. See if you can track down some verses involving death in the bible, and I mean where no sin had been committed.

How pathetic and blind you are. Were the children slaughtered by Saul sinners too? And the new born infants? And did you notice God condoning slavery? And worse still condoning the rape of children. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

That's the way things were back then.

And you, Tink and Pav says the Bible is the source of absolute morality rather than subjective morality. That is your God talking and if absolute, then it doesn't change.

CBC, you don't have the honesty or integrity to admit what you are reading is a God calling for the genocide of innocents. It is there in black and white and you are the one that said a literal interpretation of the Bible is the correct interpretation. You are the typical Lying for Jesus mob.

 

[cynic]

Is it just me or has somebody else noticed?

Purloined urine anyone?

P.S. Keep up the good work cbc! They still haven't caught on!!