Religion IS crazy!

cbc said:

The answer is yes, even if they havn't heard of Jesus they still get sent to hell. .

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If there is a God (and I have personal views on that) .....

Any God who would send non-believers to eternal damnation and suffering for ANY reason is definitely not a God I could respect or worship!

Any God that would let his own Son suffer/die to try and prove a point which could have been proven in so many other ways is NOT a God I could respect or worship.

I challenge any Father to find a reason why he would consider sacrificing his own flesh and blood ..... No Father would do that, and if he would, I would be disgusted; certainly not impressed by his "power"

We do "God" a disservice by trying to pigeon hole whatever or whoever he/she is ...... I prefer to remain open minded about pretty much everything in the Universe .... It keeps me humble.

barney said:

If there is a God (and I have personal views on that) .....

Any God who would send non-believers to eternal damnation and suffering for ANY reason is definitely not a God I could respect or worship!

Any God that would let his own Son suffer/die to try and prove a point which could have been proven in so many other ways is NOT a God I could respect or worship.

I challenge any Father to find a reason why he would consider sacrificing his own flesh and blood ..... No Father would do that, and if he would, I would be disgusted; certainly not impressed by his "power"

We do "God" a disservice by trying to pigeon hole whatever or whoever he/she is ...... I prefer to remain open minded about pretty much everything in the Universe .... It keeps me humble.

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Barney! Jump on in M8 ur more than welcome.

God loves us so that he sent his son to die for us. That is the reason.

Ur right valued, Pav and myself stuffed up. Jesus did meet with those people. I completely forgot.

Things were different then. Because there was no cross. The way to life way to do good and by your works. Back then it was holy people and sinners. That was salvation. When Jesus came he changed that. He took our sins upon the cross so we could be before God.


Not a bad pick up by the way val..... I take back what I said in earlier threads about your Iq. Although this mbey just a short burst from you. So time shall tell........

You should read the bible a tad more val...

It says the punishment for sin is death. When you die here on earth you are then subject to the laws of heaven / spiritual. In the spiritual, death is been sent to hell. Not like here where you just disappear.

Chris45 said:

I wonder how your post (if any) would have read if it had been a guy selling DVDs of Richard Dawkins material or similar?

I notice you didn't condemn with the same vehemence the actions of the people in the Four Corners report.

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My view is that if anyone goes into a country like North Korea and does anything which they know could land them a lengthy jail sentence, thereby causing immeasurable trauma and suffering to their families and loved ones, not to mention themselves, then that person is not only a damn fool, but very inconsiderate to his or her family.

Chris45 said:

John Short is a veteran Christian missionary who has been working in Asia for 50 years and no doubt he and his wife gave very serious thought to their actions before he embarked on his mission. He went in to NK with his eyes wide open because he thought he could do something to help the suffering and oppressed people of NK.

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I wonder how much good he's achieved in 50 years of missionary work, or has he just largely wasted his time and maybe even stuffed up the lifestyle and culture of some of the people he set out to help. You don't necessarily help people by introducing them to Christianity.
Sometimes the introduction of Christianity and western values and ideas have a detrimental effect on primitive people and cultures.

Chris45 said:

Or should everyone just sit on their hands and turn a blind eye to the indescribable tortures and cruelty going on there, and pour scorn on anyone who dares to try and do something?

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Pouring scorn? I'm simply being realistic in saying that it's pretty damn stupid to embark on a course of action that lands him in trouble, causes himself and his family great suffering, and all for the purpose of trying to let North Koreans know about some being called God when there's no proof whatever that there is any such being.

Chris45 said:

It's very easy to sit in the comfort and safety of your home here in this "lucky country" and ridicule the actions of those who unselfishly risk their lives like that to try and help others, and I can see a big difference between what he did and those other cases you listed.

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My wife and I have often watched journos and other professionals working in dangerous places, and hoped like hell that none of our kids would ever work there in any capacity.

I take it though, Chris, that you have other ideas. Can I assume that you'd be comfortable with your son or daughter working for an outfit like 'Doctors Without Borders'? (Several doctors with this organization were recently kidnapped in Syria).
Can I assume that you'd be happy enough to have a son or daughter working as a journo in Syria or some other dangerous country?

If do-gooders want to help their fellow humans, then there's plenty of opportunity for helping underprivileged people right here in Australia, without taking silly risks overseas to help people.

Chris45 said:

There are people risking their lives on the streets of Kiev at the moment, as well as in other countries around the world, not for their own personal benefit but to try and create a better life for others. Are they also being stupid and irresponsible?

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Oh, I think it's reasonable to say that the people in Kiev are risking their lives for what they see as the benefit to themselves and their country, not just entirely for selfless reasons.

I'll all for helping other people - that's why I've been an active member of a number of community service organizations over many years, that's why I punched above my weight in the floods that devastated my area three years ago.
But you don't help people by going into the midst of religious fanatics in places like India, and telling them your religion is better than theirs, therefore they should abandon their beliefs in favor of yours.
And you don't help people by causing such offence to a dictatorial government that they silence you and devastate your family by throwing you in the gulag to rot.

But anyway Chris, if you can see merit in doing these things then by all means go for it. I'm sure there are lots of organizations that would welcome your help in Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, or a dozen other places around the globe that are less fortunate than ourselves.

Whatever bunyip....

There is no negative side effect to introducing Jesus to anybody.

cbc said:

Whatever bunyip....

There is no negative side effect to introducing Jesus to anybody.

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It depends how Jesus is introduced.

If introduced by Young Earth Creationists and evangelists of the southern US type who regard the bible as literal then it can do enormous damage to gullible people who may believe that all you need do is pray and Jesus will take care of you. How many stories have we heard of people dying because they failed to take readily available vaccines or refused to see a doctor because they thought praying was sufficient to take care of all earthly ills.

Of course you do realise that in many Islamic countries apostasy is punishable by death. So introducing an Islamic person to Jesus could be like giving him a death sentence and even though he/she might regard that as something not worth fearing because of his/her new faith, consider other members of his family who at best will be left just bereaved but could possibly suffer the same fate even though they themselves have not changed religion.

bellenuit said:

It depends how Jesus is introduced.

If introduced by Young Earth Creationists and evangelists of the southern US type who regard the bible as literal then it can do enormous damage to gullible people who may believe that all you need do is pray and Jesus will take care of you. How many stories have we heard of people dying because they failed to take readily available vaccines or refused to see a doctor because they thought praying was sufficient to take care of all earthly ills.

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That's is exactly how Jesus is meant to be taught. Earth made in 6 days just like the bible says.

Good on those preachers for preaching it.

bunyip said:

My view is that if anyone goes into a country like North Korea and does anything which they know could land them a lengthy jail sentence, thereby causing immeasurable trauma and suffering to their families and loved ones, not to mention themselves, then that person is not only a damn fool, but very inconsiderate to his or her family.

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Bunyip, we obviously see things differently. People will do what their hearts and minds tell them to, whether it be journos, doctors, or missionaries, and I don't criticize them for that and it takes all kinds to make the world.

If people risk their lives for personal gain like smuggling drugs, or exploiting the desperately poor, or getting their names into the record books, etc., I have NO sympathy for them, but if they do it for altruistic purposes, I won't criticize them and John Short certainly has a lot more courage than I have and I admire him for it.

Oh, I think it's reasonable to say that the people in Kiev are risking their lives for what they see as the benefit to themselves and their country, not just entirely for selfless reasons.

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I saw a report on News24 about Kiev and they were interviewing a young protester and asked him about risking his life, and his reply was that if he died it wasn't important because he wanted to create a better life for others.

Obviously he was hoping to live, but he was prepared to sacrifice himself for others, and I imagine there would be many others like him.

pavilion103 said:

I'll take a God that has no tolerance for sin any day.

In the same way I'll take a judge who upholds the law and doesn't let those who break it run around willy nilly.

The fact that God doesn't tolerate it shows how holy and moral his character is.

He reveals himself plain and clear for those who open their eyes. It's sad that most don't take he time to.

If you spent as much time seeking truth as you do debating your views in here, you'll find it too.

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But he does tolerate it, he sits there watching children being raped and just says you'll pay for that later.

In fact your god would let a child rapist into heaven as long as he repented later, but the child victim may go to hell for not believing, where is the justice.

cbc said:

Whatever bunyip....

There is no negative side effect to introducing Jesus to anybody.

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Yes the most certainly is, if they are gullible enough to believe your religious b.s they can end up discriminating against other groups, alienate them selves from their family, destroy friendships etc etc.

They could end up dying from curable diseases or let their children die, lose money to religious hucksters

There are lots of bad side effects of religion.

Value Collector said:

But he does tolerate it, he sits there watching children being raped and just says you'll pay for that later.

In fact your god would let a child rapist into heaven as long as he repented later, but the child victim may go to hell for not believing, where is the justice.

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But he does tolerate it????????

One moment ur saying its a load of rubbish. Now ur saying that God does this, God does that.......

Sorry, can u please clarify whether ur a believer? Sorry about the stuff Iv said to you.... U know..... If you believe that God does this and God does that.

cbc said:

But he does tolerate it????????

One moment ur saying its a load of rubbish. Now ur saying that God does this, God does that.......

Sorry, can u please clarify whether ur a believer? Sorry about the stuff Iv said to you.... U know..... If you believe that God does this and God does that.

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I am an atheist, talking to a believer about his god that he believes in.

He says his god doesn't tolerate sin, so i am pointing out that if he were real he certainly does tolerate it because he does nothing to stop the actions.

I can make a comment about what your god does and doesn't do, just the same as i can make a comment about what superman does or doesn't do based on his comic books. I am not saying your god or superman exist, just commenting on the character as you guys are describing him.

Value Collector said:

I am an atheist, talking to a believer about his god that he believes in.

He says his god doesn't tolerate sin, so i am pointing out that if he were real he certainly does tolerate it because he does nothing to stop the actions.

I can make a comment about what your god does and doesn't do, just the same as i can make a comment about what superman does or doesn't do based on his comic books. I am not saying your god or superman exist, just commenting on the character as you guys are describing him.

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Sorry val, I was just getting a bit excited. I thought I might have converted you.

Obviously not.



There are many things about God I don't understand. I can't answer that question / what your trying to say.

Are you sure you don't want to convert?

barney said:

...
We do "God" a disservice by trying to pigeon hole whatever or whoever he/she is ...... I prefer to remain open minded about pretty much everything in the Universe .... It keeps me humble.

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+1

cbc said:

Barney! Jump on in M8 ur more than welcome.
...

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+1

This thread can certainly benefit from offerings of tempered wisdom as evidenced by the contents and manner of your post.

Value Collector said:

...
There are lots of bad side effects of religion.

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Yes! Sadly, this is true of many religions, but, let's not forget that their are babies to be found amidst the muddy bathwater!

cbc said:

...Sorry val, I was just getting a bit excited. I thought I might have converted you.

Obviously not.



There are many things about God I don't understand. I can't answer that question / what your trying to say.

Are you sure you don't want to convert?

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cbc,

I'm sure I share your surprise at the number of posters failing to recognise your angle.

I find your approach to this debate hysterical!

The failure of certain contributors to notice what you're doing simply adds to the hilarity!

I am genuinely impressed - Well done!


P.S. Allah Akbar!

Yes! Sadly, this is true of many religions, but, let's not forget that their are babies to be found amidst the muddy bathwater!

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Can you name one good thing religions do that can not be achieved through other means.

I think it is quite possible to throw out the muddy water while retaining the babies.

cbc said:

.

Are you sure you don't want to convert?

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You would have to do three things to covert me.

1, prove that a god exists

2, and then, the hard bit. Prove that this god that exists is actually your version of god, and actually cares about the things you say he does.

3, and then convince me that this god deserves my worship.

Value Collector said:

Can you name one good thing religions do that can not be achieved through other means.

I think it is quite possible to throw out the muddy water while retaining the babies.

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I believe it is possible to gradually cleanse the waters and remove some of the mud. Before doing so, one needs sufficient wisdom to discern the babies from the bathwater. Whereas awareness of our personal fallibility generally gives rise to the prudence that limits mistakes, the arrogant presumption of "knowing" better than others tends to give rise to hasty actions with potentially harmful consequences for all concerned.

As you are already aware, mankind is enjoying many good things that have arisen from a variety of the religious pursuits of mankind.

Whether such things might have been achievable absent religion is a matter of which I am sincerely doubtful and choose not to speculate.

My preference is to work with the best of our accumulated knowledge base in the expectation of gradually improving it.

cynic said:

I believe it is possible to gradually cleanse the waters and remove some of the mud. Before doing so, one needs sufficient wisdom to discern the babies from the bathwater. Whereas awareness of our personal fallibility generally gives rise to the prudence that limits mistakes, the arrogant presumption of "knowing" better than others tends to give rise to hasty actions with potentially harmful consequences for all concerned.

As you are already aware, mankind is enjoying many good things that have arisen from a variety of the religious pursuits of mankind.

Whether such things might have been achievable absent religion is a matter of which I am sincerely doubtful and choose not to speculate.

My preference is to work with the best of our accumulated knowledge base in the expectation of gradually improving it.

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Well since even the religious admit the many, many bad side effects of religion, and seem to have trouble naming positive effects that couldn't be achieved by other means, it would seem to me that the move away should be rapid. A doctor wont prescribe a pill with the side effects of religion if he thought the positive effects could be achieved through other methods.

Off course the people selling the pill with the bad side effects would resist any change and the ones duped into thinking the pill gave them eternal life would also resist.

John Lennon said it best " Imagine no religion, its easy if you try"

pavilion103 said:

No no no. They do not have a free pass.
God places in our hearts the knowledge that there is a god.

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Then why is it that i have so much trouble believeing there is a god

Value Collector said:

Well since even the religious admit the many, many bad side effects of religion, and seem to have trouble naming positive effects that couldn't be achieved by other means, it would seem to me that the move away should be rapid. A doctor wont prescribe a pill with the side effects of religion if he thought the positive effects could be achieved through other methods.

Off course the people selling the pill with the bad side effects would resist any change and the ones duped into thinking the pill gave them eternal life would also resist.

John Lennon said it best " Imagine no religion, its easy if you try"

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Seriously?!!

Have you already forgotten the historical origins of surgery and pharmacology?

Can you see how my statement about personal fallibility, and the actions taken by one arrogantly presuming to "know" better, applies to the sentiments you're expressing?