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Religion IS crazy!

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cynic said:
http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/astrology/newton.htm
I find it somewhat comical that various posts (on this and other threads) have expressed a dismissive view of those whom embrace religious/metaphysical beliefs. The claim that such people are devoid of logic, or perhaps indoctrinated to the point of being unable to think critically, and that science education will somehow prove to be a suitable remedy, leads me to question the capacity for objective investigation on the part of those making such claims. A brief examination into the lives and practices of just a few of the more significant scientific pioneers throughout human history reveals people whom held strong beliefs in philosophy, metaphysics and the existence of God!

Now I ask you, where would our modern day sciences of mathematics, physics, astronomy, engineering, chemistry etc. be without the past discoveries of these religious savants?
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Imagine where we'd be with pure logic and reason?
 
Ruby said:
Lack of Christian belief does not make one selfish. Some of the most philanthropic, kind and loving people in the community are non-Christians;
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I agree. After the 2011 floods caused death and destruction in my area, a flood refugee center was set up in my local village to look after those who homes were inundated. A couple of hundred people were there helping out. I knew most of them, including whether or not they were church goers. Some were, some weren’t, about half and half I’d say. Same story when it came to helping clean up homes that had gone under water – loads of people helping out, some of them Christians, some not.
There are many good and decent people who are not Christain in as much as they don’t believe in God, but they nevertheless live lives of integrity, honesty, and consideration of others. In short, they live according to the basic Christian principle of treating other people as you'd like them to treat you.

As has been mentioned before on this thread, Christians don’t own a monopoly on goodness and decency.

Ruby said:
conversely many Christians are sanctimonious selfish bigots.
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Certainly there are some of these types of people in Christian churches. But in my experience the overwhelming majority of Christians are genuinely good and decent people.
 
cynic said:
Now I ask you, where would our modern day sciences of mathematics, physics, astronomy, engineering, chemistry etc. be without the past discoveries of these religious savants?
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Certainly not as far as it is today. But because religion was regarded as part and parcel of civilised society, the contribution of the pioneers in each of the fields you listed was due to the fact that they were educated people, not religious people. It is only since Darwin that people could see how the different species that exist today could evolve through random mutation couple with natural selection. And it was only in the last century or so that people began to understand the fundamental structure of matter, the composition of the universe, the absolute vastness of the universe, the mathematics of how the universe could come to what it is today from its origins in the Big Bang, issues like the equivalence of mass and energy etc. etc.

So without that understanding how could anyone, prior to the twentieth century, explain the universe as it was known without relying on a deity of some sort. It was pretty much accepted that God was the creator of everything and science was just a means of understanding God's laws.

Perhaps to restate your question.

Apart from who assisted in the discoveries, what additions to our knowledge of mathematics, physics, astronomy, engineering, chemistry etc. came from religious knowledge. What have the scriptures for example, which is the source of most Abrahamic religious beliefs, added to our knowledge of those subjects. I think pretty much zilch. In fact in most instances, where biblical text addresses these issues, it is just plain wrong.
 
kennas said:
I've seen no peer reviewed Phd studies on this hypothesis, but my own personal experiences with family and friends would would be contrary to this assertion.
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There's a book about it...

''It's one of the great paradoxes of Australian education,'' says Dr Helen Proctor, from the University of Sydney. ''We're one of the least-religious nations in the world, yet we have this large and increasing attendance of children in religious schools.''

Proctor was the co-author of the 2009 book School Choice: How Parents Negotiate the New School Markets in Australia, for which she interviewed many non-religious parents about why they sent their children to religious schools.

''What they were trying to choose was a non-public school because they were disaffected with public schools, one way or the other,'' she says.

In Australia, almost all private schools have some religious affiliation. The choice is often akin to a''cost-benefit analysis'', she says. ''The benefit was that it's a private school - it's got good facilities, good academic results, nice new buildings and the cost might be that it's a bit religious.''
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Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...g-the-faith-20130217-2el4a.html#ixzz2UshUIzxO

I went to an Anglican school (I think it's the one the guy at the beginning of the article got expelled from). The religion aspect was certainly never forced down your throat beyond the once a fortnight morning house chapel service and an annual Founders' Day service. It does seem to be a bigger part of the Catholic system.
 
Ruby said:
Tink, this is a very biased and narrow-minded statement and there is no evidence to support it. Lack of Christian belief does not make one selfish. Some of the most philanthropic, kind and loving people in the community are non-Christians; conversely many Christians are sanctimonious selfish bigots.
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Ruby, next time, dont pull out one sentence out of a whole paragraph when I was talking about Christian schools verses public schools.

I would appreciate if you wrote the whole contents, thanks.
 
bellenuit said:
Certainly not as far as it is today. But because religion was regarded as part and parcel of civilised society, the contribution of the pioneers in each of the fields you listed was due to the fact that they were educated people, not religious people.
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I can partially (although not totally) agree.
My post was primarily intended as a rebuttal to the opinion that those subscrbing to a belief in a higher being/power were either illogical or indoctrinated beyond the capacity for critical thought. A brief examination of the history of major scientific pioneers strongly suggests that, not only did many hold strong religious/philosophical beliefs, but on many occasions their scientific discoveries arose consequent to pursuits inspired by those religious/philosophical beliefs!

bellenuit said:
It is only since Darwin that people could see how the different species that exist today could evolve through random mutation couple with natural selection. And it was only in the last century or so that people began to understand the fundamental structure of matter, the composition of the universe, the absolute vastness of the universe, the mathematics of how the universe could come to what it is today from its origins in the Big Bang, issues like the equivalence of mass and energy etc. etc.

So without that understanding how could anyone, prior to the twentieth century, explain the universe as it was known without relying on a deity of some sort. It was pretty much accepted that God was the creator of everything and science was just a means of understanding God's laws.
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Yes this is very much akin to my philosophy. As it happens, even with science's progress into unravelling the mysteries of creation, much continues to remain unexplained.
Has an account been given for the origins of the particles/energy that led to the Big Bang event?
Certainly we are able to experience the existence of things such as energy/matter, volume and the passage of time.
Is anyone actually able to define the limits of the universe that we experience?
If they are, how do they resolve the puzzle of what lies outside of those limits?
If there's nothing outside, how could there be anything inside?
If it has a beginning, from whence did it come?
If it has an ending, where did it go?
If something has no begining nor ending, how could it ever have come to be and how could time be finite or even definable?
To me, the mere concept of existence is an intriguing paradox. To date, neither my belief in God nor my belief in science has yielded a solution to this conundrum! If you've somehow managed to discover a solution, I'm sure that many of us here would be happy to hear of it!

bellenuit said:
Perhaps to restate your question.

Apart from who assisted in the discoveries, what additions to our knowledge of mathematics, physics, astronomy, engineering, chemistry etc. came from religious knowledge. What have the scriptures for example, which is the source of most Abrahamic religious beliefs, added to our knowledge of those subjects. I think pretty much zilch. In fact in most instances, where biblical text addresses these issues, it is just plain wrong.
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Rather than limit myself to one stream of religious texts, my preference is to reply with my current understanding of the origins of several branches of science. Chemistry resulted from discoveries made by druid alchemists whilst engaged in their quest for the philosopher's stone. Initial interest in the movement of heavenly bodies (i.e. astronomy) arose from the practice of astrology. Much of our mathematics was provided by philosophers, many of whom subscribed to metaphysical belief systems of one form or another (if my memory serves me correctly, Pythagoras had an active interest in numerology!). I am also of the understanding that religious bodies/organisations founded the vast majority of our earlier universities. I do not insist that a firm belief in higher powers is a prerequisite for the expansion of the frontiers of science, however, I do believe that, whilst so much continues to remain unexplained, a mind that is open to a wider array of possibilities is essential!

My reasons for arguing the case for divine belief systems is twofold.
Firstly, I've experienced phenomena (often coincident with prayer/meditation) for which science has, as yet, failed to provide adequate explanation. The automatic denigration of my cognitive faculties, which is often the typical response of resolute disbelievers, could hardly be described as anything less than prejudicial and hence unscientific. (The "I know I am right therefore you must be wrong" philosophy simply doesn't wash with me!)

Secondly, whilst there are mysteries within our universe, that remain unexplained by science and other religions, I fail to see how anyone subscribing to one belief system can automatically claim to have such absolute authority over the truth as to be able to boldly and confidently declare another belief system entirely false.

Please understand that whilst I do have a firm belief in the existence of the divine, I do have an enquiring mind and, as such, remain open to the consideration of any alternative explanation that eventuates.

I've known many wonderful people in my time. Some believe in divinity, some disbelieve and others are undecided.

Whilst the aberrant actions of some devotees have certainly done a great disservice to the cause of various belief systems, including Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Science (yes! Some scientists have been naughty too!), it shocks me that intelligent people will so quickly condemn an entire philosophy without first giving consideration to the many wonderful contributions made to our society.
 
MrBurns said:
'Moderate Political Islam' Leading
Turkey to 'Moderate Shariah'

Read more:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/05/turkey-political-islam-sharia.html#ixzz2UumNBe5m
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Yeah, looks like Turkey is about to step back in time.


Al Jazeera

Protesters #OccupyGezi to save Istanbul park

Turkish riot police fired tear gas and water cannons into crowds of demonstrators gathered in Istanbul’s Gezi park on Friday. Since May 28, activists have held peaceful protests to prevent the demolition of a what they call Istanbul’s last green public space.

According to Al Jazeera’s Rawya Rageh, protesters complained that police were firing teargas indiscriminately, while some demonstrators were seen throwing rocks at police.

While the main demand of the demonstration is to protect Gezi park, other are airing grievances against Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

On Twitter, hashtags related to the protest trended worldwide, with the main term “#OccupyGezi” reaching more than 160,000 mentions on Friday. Many activists on the ground have started tweeting in English in order to spread news of the police crackdown.

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201305302148-0022796
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CNN

A Letter to the Rest of the World

I can be the first to admit that I've never been very politically active. I always watched from the sidelines. This is the first time in my 30 years that tears well up for what is happening just up the road from where I write these words.

Living abroad for many years, it was easy to brush off foreign news of civil unrest. Watching it on TV was always like some action movie, easily commented upon and then quickly brushed off as I watched in local bars or airport lounges.

Seeing the Istanbul police attacks for the first time today was chilling. Police are not only using tear gas, but plastic bullets, water cannons and physical violence. The photographs are all over social media worldwide.

Police are packing people into the subway stations and throwing in tear gas, attacking hospitals where the injured are being treated. A man and a girl have reportedly been killed. Even a politician has been seriously injured.

People from all ages and races, all political viewpoints are coming together to fight. People are moving up towards Taksim, being attacked and pushed out and then relentlessly returning to the site of the attacks. People are angry to the core of their beings.
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Tink said:
Ruby, next time, dont pull out one sentence out of a whole paragraph when I was talking about Christian schools verses public schools.

I would appreciate if you wrote the whole contents, thanks.
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Tink, I apologise. I did not realise that part of your post was still about religious schools versus non-religious schools, so I will rephrase my comment.

It is narrow minded and incorrect to suggest that the teachings and philosophy of non-religious schools are any more self-centred and less philanthropic than those of religious schools. There are many non-religious schools which turn out very fine young people who have been taught to have high ideals, a spirit of service, and to be the best they can be. I speak from experience. Where is the evidence for your claim?
 
bunyip said:
Certainly there are some of these types of people in Christian churches. But in my experience the overwhelming majority of Christians are genuinely good and decent people.
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Bunyip - what is your point? The overwhelming majority of non-Christians are also genuinely good and decent people.

My issue is with sweeping baseless claims having no evidence to support them, such as the one which prompted my comment.
 
bellenuit said:
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Crazy.

Someone posted a youtube link in this thread where a certain Christian group thinks that the Earth is only 5,000 years old.


Saw this on reddit the other day.

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bellenuit said:
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That visiting scientist is to be commended for actually keeping a straight face throughout the interview - if it'd been me, my sides would've been splitting with laughter!

Thanks bellenuit for unearthing this gem!
 
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Religion is just a set of outdated belief systems and the civilized world is starting to question. As people question the fiction in the teachings they break down the belief system.

I'm reading a very good book that discusses this.
To Believe Or Not To Believe: The Social and Neurological Consequences of Belief Systems.
Rahasya Poe
 
Paul Woodward said:
Religion is just a set of outdated belief systems and the civilized world is starting to question. As people question the fiction in the teachings they break down the belief system.

I'm reading a very good book that discusses this.
To Believe Or Not To Believe: The Social and Neurological Consequences of Belief Systems.
Rahasya Poe
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Interesting. Does this also apply to other philosophies and belief systems such as evolution and other theories or just religion?
 
pavilion103 said:
Interesting. Does this also apply to other philosophies and belief systems such as evolution and other theories or just religion?
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Pav, i didn't want to get involved in this thread but i can't help but wonder how you can compare a belief system with a theory. You're a smart guy, so I'm sure you understand what a theory is. The bible is not a theory right? The theory of evolution is not a belief system, or religion...right?

Regardless if the theory of evolution has a staggering amount of evidence backing it up it still is a theory and cannot be proven at this stage. As far as i know religion is a belief system and not a theory, for all the evidence collected so far by the scientific community contradicts the bible, or the belief system.

OR are you saying there is enough evidence available supporting Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism that they are to be considered theories and not religions (belief systems)?

CanOz
 
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