Religion IS crazy!

[Julia]

And red shoes?

 

[Trentb]

Something comes from nothing. Life then appears from non-life magically. It has no programming and with no instruction at all somehow evolves into a person over millions of years.

To engage you:

1. If evolution is wrong, are the people responsible for the science purposely lying and misleading everyone, or are they just too stupid to understand?

2. Why do christian churches exist as individual buildings and land? What justification is there for not selling all of them and using the billions of dollars gained to help fight world poverty? Why can't mass be held in a park?

 

[DB008]

Delay communions until adulthood, says priest

First communions and confirmations should be delayed, potentially into adulthood, to prevent the events from becoming hollow moments that mean nothing to those taking part.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/delay-communions-until-adulthood-says-priest-232680.html

 

[Sean K]

Something comes from nothing. Life then appears from non-life magically. It has no programming and with no instruction at all somehow evolves into a person over millions of years. No transitory fossil evidence, no examples of increases of genetic information anywhere, irreducible complex cells in existence! This just happened from nothing and from no where.

Yes, the best way to explain this is to assign it to God...

...if you're living in a world that thinks the Sun and Moon are biologically related, the Earth is flat, and Moses parted the Red Sea.

Humans have assigned the unknown, incredible natural phenomenon, and bad luck, to Gods for a very very long time.

I think the earliest recorded human attempt to explain evolution is the Eridu Genesis. Perhaps we haven't evolved much since then after all.

 

[bunyip]

Just to give the evolution vs creation argument a break for a while............

One of the things that perplexes me about religion is why some victims of abuse by clergy continue to belong to the religion in which the abuse occurred, and even send their children to schools run by that religion.
I know one man who as a child was sexually abused by a Catholic priest. This man continues to be a Catholic to this day, attends church regularly, and even sent his children to a Catholic school.

Another friend of mine was physically abused by nuns in a Catholic boarding school when he was six years old. The nuns used to lay into the little kids with a heavy leather strap for bed wetting, talking after lights out, and various other minor misdemeanors that are just a normal part of little kids growing up.
Yet he is still a Catholic and he still sent his own children to a Catholic school.

This I do not understand. If a church has given you horrific childhood experiences, and then covered up their crimes and protected the animals who committed them, why in the world would you continue to support that church and even send your own kids to schools that are run by it?

 

[bellenuit]

Just to give the evolution vs creation argument a break for a while............

One of the things that perplexes me about religion is why some victims of abuse by clergy continue to belong to the religion in which the abuse occurred, and even send their children to schools run by that religion.
I know one man who as a child was sexually abused by a Catholic priest. This man continues to be a Catholic to this day, attends church regularly, and even sent his children to a Catholic school.

Another friend of mine was physically abused by nuns in a Catholic boarding school when he was six years old. The nuns used to lay into the little kids with a heavy leather strap for bed wetting, talking after lights out, and various other minor misdemeanors that are just a normal part of little kids growing up.
Yet he is still a Catholic and he still sent his own children to a Catholic school.

This I do not understand. If a church has given you horrific childhood experiences, and then covered up their crimes and protected the animals who committed them, why in the world would you continue to support that church and even send your own kids to schools that are run by it?

Being an ex-Catholic and from speaking to my religious friends it's because they see their religion as separate from its practitioners. Church teachings do not condone or encourage the bad behaviour of some priests and nuns, so there is no need, in their minds, to reject those teachings because some chose not to follow them. I am no longer a Catholic, not because of the behaviour of the clergy, but purely because I no longer believe the basic tenets that are taught. However, much of Catholic morality I agree with, but I see that as being human inspired and not by a deity.

 

[FxTrader]

If a church has given you horrific childhood experiences, and then covered up their crimes and protected the animals who committed them, why in the world would you continue to support that church and even send your own kids to schools that are run by it?

A significant contributing factor would likely be religious indoctrination as a child. Poisonous religious programming allows the church institutions to somehow be given a pass while the individual perpetrators get all the focus.

Catholic schools in particular are perceived to provide a higher standard of education by the parents who send their children to them. That and the lower cost of such private education in Catholic schools in comparison to other private schools are the prime drivers of their popularity with many parents and not the religious nonsense that is peddled to their children.

So called religious "education" (indoctrination in reality) of school children should not be permitted in a modern society. The dangers of this are plain see all over the planet where religious mythology is elevated to a primacy in human discourse and behavior it does not deserve.

 

[Julia]

Being an ex-Catholic and from speaking to my religious friends its because they see their religion as separate from its practitioners.

This presumably also explains the apparently continuing total belief in the church by its adherents, some of whom have demonstrated this unshakeable faith on this forum.

It must be very difficult trying to reconcile absolute belief in a religion, the leaders of which have been so clearly shown to be corrupt in the extreme. I don't know how it's possible, but they continue to do it.

Perhaps the early indoctrination of the overwhelming belief in a God plus the attraction of belonging to some belief system shared by others is enough.

 

[bellenuit]

This I do not understand. If a church has given you horrific childhood experiences, and then covered up their crimes and protected the animals who committed them, why in the world would you continue to support that church and even send your own kids to schools that are run by it?

Many of my friends who are atheist or at best lapsed Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools because they perceive them to be better than non-religious schools. I think that is probably correct as a generalisation, but there will be many particular exceptions.

The kids themselves (at least most I know) only partake in religious practices in the schools to the extent that such practices are mandatory.

Even though it is very unlikely that deviant clergy would today get away with molesting (or in some cases brutalising) kids as they have done in the past, it is also the case that most Catholic schools are almost completely staffed by lay teachers. Even headmasters and headmistresses (is that still the right word?) are mainly lay people today.

 

[Sean K]

A significant contributing factor would likely be religious indoctrination as a child.

A brilliant tactic of the church.

This is quite possibly the most significant factor in contributing to the perpetuation of their doctrine.

If the secular world is able to control religious education until the point that humans can think for themselves then religion is toast!

And, why not religion? Why not allow a broader education?

The fear that kids be converted to logic and science?

 

[bellenuit]

Perhaps the early indoctrination of the overwhelming belief in a God plus the attraction of belonging to some belief system shared by others is enough.

Plus the fear of not believing in a God. It was drummed into them from an early age that to not believe meant you would go to hell, which at that time was believed to be a place of eternal torture (I think they have mitigated that since, to just being a state of exclusion from God). That is a terrifying thought that still controls peoples' minds right until their deathbed.

Of course at the same time, the God who would do that was described as infinitely forgiving, which doesn't make sense. Why? I am not infinitely forgiving, but I would not submit my worst enemy to that fate for even a day.

 

[bellenuit]

Even headmasters and headmistresses (is that still the right word?) are mainly lay people today.

School Principals is what I meant to say.

 

[Tink]

Agree with your post bellenuit answering Bunyips question.
The Church does not condone that behaviour.
As I mentioned earlier, the Christian schools are all full with long waiting lists, the morality that is taught rings true.

I know we have had this conversation before, but the teachings are on family and others, the principles in their teachings.
The view away from Christianity seems to dwell on self, not so much including others in the equation.
Jesus teachings is about helping others, there is no joy in putting yourself first, we are all a part of each other.
Love one another as I have loved you is what its all about.

I hope I have explained myself properly here.

 

[bunyip]

Agree with your post bellenuit answering Bunyips question.
The Church does not condone that behaviour.
As I mentioned earlier, the Christian schools are all full with long waiting lists, the morality that is taught rings true.

I know we have had this conversation before, but the teachings are on family and others, the principles in their teachings.
The view away from Christianity seems to dwell on self, not so much including others in the equation.
Jesus teachings is about helping others, there is no joy in putting yourself first, we are all a part of each other.
Love one another as I have loved you is what its all about.

I hope I have explained myself properly here.

Why wouldn’t a victim of sexual abuse by a Catholic priest simply move across to another church? Since many of the incidents of abuse appear to occur in Catholic schools, why would an abuse victim potentially expose his children to abuse by sending them to a Catholic school?
Catholic schools are nothing special, as far as religious schools go. My wife and I sent out kids to a private Presbyterian school, and quite frankly it left the local Catholic schools for dead. It was excellent in terms of instilling decent Christian principles in it’s students, such as honesty, integrity, responsibility, consideration for others. And it’s academic and sporting achievements were well in front of the Catholic schools in our area. Don’t misunderstand me, some Catholic schools excel in all areas. But my point is that if a victim of abuse in the Catholic church wanted an excellent private school education for his kids, and he favored schools run by religions, then there are usually other choices apart from Catholic schools.

The catholic church is nothing special, it’s no better than other Christian religions. Contrary to what they teach you, you will not go to hell just because you abandon your Catholic faith by changing over to another church. Do you really think that God, if he exists, cares what church you belong to, or even if you belong to any church at all? Common sense should tell us that if God exists and he’s as loving and compassionate as he’s touted to be, then he’ll judge you on your character and integrity and your adherence to decent Christian principles, not on which church you belong to.

 

[McLovin]

People send their kids to Catholic schools because they're a cheaper option to a private school (religious or not), with generally better education outcomes than a non-selective public school.

The Church does not condone that behaviour.

con·done
/kənˈdōn/
Verb

Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.
Approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance.

Really? What they've been shown to have done over the last God knows how long seems to fit the definition of condone.

 

[Julia]

People send their kids to Catholic schools because they're a cheaper option to a private school (religious or not), with generally better education outcomes than a non-selective public school.

Largely agree. Not often because of any religious affiliation or interest.

 

[Ruby]

............The view away from Christianity seems to dwell on self, not so much including others in the equation.....

Tink, this is a very biased and narrow-minded statement and there is no evidence to support it. Lack of Christian belief does not make one selfish. Some of the most philanthropic, kind and loving people in the community are non-Christians; conversely many Christians are sanctimonious selfish bigots.

 

[Sean K]

People send their kids to Catholic schools because they're a cheaper option to a private school (religious or not), with generally better education outcomes than a non-selective public school.

I've seen no peer reviewed Phd studies on this hypothesis, but my own personal experiences with family and friends would would be contrary to this assertion.

 

[Julia]

Tink, this is a very biased and narrow-minded statement and there is no evidence to support it. Lack of Christian belief does not make one selfish. Some of the most philanthropic, kind and loving people in the community are non-Christians; conversely many Christians are sanctimonious selfish bigots.

+1. It's the same as religious devotees claiming that only they, via their religion, have a handle on a decent moral compass.

 

[cynic]

A brilliant tactic of the church.

This is quite possibly the most significant factor in contributing to the perpetuation of their doctrine.

If the secular world is able to control religious education until the point that humans can think for themselves then religion is toast!

And, why not religion? Why not allow a broader education?

The fear that kids be converted to logic and science?

... when Dr. Halley ventured to say anything disrespectful to religion, he invariably checked him, with the remark, “I have studied these things – you have not”.’[22]
The fact that Halley and Newton often quarreled on theological matters is confirmed by another remark recorded by John Conduitt, who in turn heard it from his wife (and Newton’s niece) Catherine Conduitt (née Barton; 1679-1739).[23] However, these altercations were never so intense as to cause a rift between these two great scientists...

http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/astrology/newton.htm
I find it somewhat comical that various posts (on this and other threads) have expressed a dismissive view of those whom embrace religious/metaphysical beliefs. The claim that such people are devoid of logic, or perhaps indoctrinated to the point of being unable to think critically, and that science education will somehow prove to be a suitable remedy, leads me to question the capacity for objective investigation on the part of those making such claims. A brief examination into the lives and practices of just a few of the more significant scientific pioneers throughout human history reveals people whom held strong beliefs in philosophy, metaphysics and the existence of God!

Now I ask you, where would our modern day sciences of mathematics, physics, astronomy, engineering, chemistry etc. be without the past discoveries of these religious savants?