Religion IS crazy!

[Gringotts Bank]

So how does something come from nothing?

How did matter appear in a non eternal world without someone outside of time creating it?

It can't be answered in words, it can only be experienced. When the self is seen through as illusion, all that's left is Truth (or God) experiencing itself as infinite things.

To experience it, you would need to either 1) interpret the Bible differently, similar to the Christian mystics and contemplatives such as Bernadette Roberts or 2) look into some of the other religions and philosophies, which explain it more clearly, and how to do it.

If the Bible is the limit of your spiritual learning, you could easily be mislead, just as if your only learning was from the Koran.

 

[FxTrader]

1) easy. If God is eternal he exists outside of time. Anything that is not eternal requires a cause. Anything that is eternal clearly does not (by definition).

Truly pathetic. Please don't cough up metaphysical nonsense to try and explain what can't be explained. Far more intelligent religious commentators than yourself rightly state the origins of their God as a mystery.

2) ok - Creator

You're proud of this response are you? If you posit that life can't come non-life then how did your eternal magician make it happen?

3) lol so there is an absence. Actually there is not one single scientific example

Like I said, it makes no difference since it does not make the case for a sky God but you just can't seem to grasp that point.

4) BS

Well that accurately sums up the your case for religious belief. Keep your intellect buried in the religious sand so you can keep your head in the clouds and remain a slave to religious mythology.

 

[boofis]

Here is my succint answer.

1) Give me one example of something coming from NOTHING? The universe is not eternal so it began to exist. Give
me ONE plausible explanation how it came into existence from NOTHING?

If the context of this question is the universe, then there's a fairly high chance that the philosophical idea of 'nothing' doesn't exist. So when you ask, how can something come from NOTHING...welllll it turns out that 'nothing' may just have measurable physical qualities so it's an invalid question.

2) Give me one example of life coming from non-life?

You have to define life on this one otherwise my answer will be assumptive of your premise of what life is.

3) Give me one example of an addition of genetic information?

This ones easy: A-T,C-G,C-G,A-T,T-A,C-G.......A-T,C-G,C-G,G-C,A-T,T-A,C-G. And yes that's legitimate.

4) How do you account for irreducible complexity?

Again, it's an invalid question cause irreducible complexity doesn't exist.

Answer me this one question and I'll gladly shout you a beer.

If God made the universe and it's only 6000 years old (if you're a literal Bible man), what is your explanation of the night sky?

I'm leaving that question vague, because if you haven't thought about it before, then I dare say you need to so I'm not going to spoon feed you an answer you won't accept, and if you have thought about it, you'll know the fatal implication.

 

[pavilion103]

Ok I get what is going on here. There is a lot of piss being taken.

The atheist theory relies on something sprining into being from nothing (i.e. without being created). The Universe it not eternal so it couldn't have always existed. How did it get into being?

Then I'm answered that there is no such thing as nothing, or how did God do it?


No place for logic in this thread obviously, you guys just tyring to have a laugh and wind me up with those answers.


I'm not going to bother. You are not seeking the truth.

I'm outta here. Catchya on the trading threads guys and girls!

 

[spooly74]

Ok I get what is going on here. There is a lot of piss being taken.

The atheist theory relies on something sprining into being from nothing (i.e. without being created). The Universe it not eternal so it couldn't have always existed. How did it get into being?

Then I'm answered that there is no such thing as nothing, or how did God do it?

Atheist Theory?

The Universe is almost 14 billion years old, so of course it's not eternal. You wont find many who think it is.
But what caused the Universe to form could be. We don't know.

I get the impression that you think that 'nothing' is somehow a preferred or natural state, but I don't think it's relevant.
You should be asking yourself, how can the Universe and what caused it not exist? as 'something' is all we know to be true.

 

[FxTrader]

The atheist theory relies on something sprining into being from nothing (i.e. without being created). The Universe it not eternal so it couldn't have always existed. How did it get into being? Then I'm answered that there is no such thing as nothing, or how did God do it?

Once again you have demonstrated that you don't understand what atheism is or what atheists do and don't believe but instead attack your straw man caricature of atheism. It's so typical of the religious to cast the hated atheism in a mold they can then criticise, just intelletual dishonesty and religious arrogance really.

No place for logic in this thread obviously, you guys just tyring to have a laugh and wind me up with those answers.

Thoughtful logic and reason have not been a feature of your argumentation here so you have form asserting this. Your little misdirection attack on evolution fools nobody here, you have made no compelling arguments for the existence of any God let alone a Christian one, just the some old and tired creationist playbook.

You are not seeking the truth.

Yet more dismissive arrogance from a religious drone. This calls to mind something I read recently here...

http://ffrf.org/news/blog/item/17856-the-arrogance-of-christian-nationalism

In particular...

"A common perception of Christianity, or perhaps a common Christian self-perception, is that Christianity or Christians are humble and that atheists, humanists, and scientists are arrogant. Dwell briefly on this notion and it is quickly and correctly reversed. Christianity claims to know ultimate truth with absolute certainty on the basis of no evidence. Atheists, humanists, and scientists claim to have answers supported by evidence, not faith, and are willing to alter their views should new evidence arise. The conceit falls on the side of unshakable faith."

How true.

 

[boofis]

Ok I get what is going on here. There is a lot of piss being taken.

The atheist theory relies on something sprining into being from nothing (i.e. without being created). The Universe it not eternal so it couldn't have always existed. How did it get into being?

Then I'm answered that there is no such thing as nothing, or how did God do it?


No place for logic in this thread obviously, you guys just tyring to have a laugh and wind me up with those answers.


I'm not going to bother. You are not seeking the truth.

I'm outta here. Catchya on the trading threads guys and girls!

I'm deadset serious just for the record. If we're discussing matter/the universe/etc. then my statement regarding nothing is currently justified. It may be proved wrong in which case I will be forced to adjust my view of reality to fit with the evidence rather than choosing the evidence that agrees with my view of reality.

 

[bunyip]

I don’t know and don’t care how mankind, the earth, other planets, other galaxies, or anything else came into being. The simple fact is that it really doesn’t matter.
What’s most important is that we lead decent lives, and if we do that well enough then we just might just secure an entry pass into heaven, if such a place exists (which I doubt). And if there’s no next life, then living decent lives doesn’t do us any harm anyway.

One thing that occurs to methough is this......this place Heaven, much vaunted as a utopia, a blissful paradise where life is perfect, is unlikely to be anywhere near as perfect as many people seem to think. That is, assuming that heaven exists, which in my opinion it does not.
Think about it. We think places like China and Indonesia and Bangladesh are crowded, but they’d be sparsely populated in comparison to heaven. Good and decent people have been dying for hundreds of thousands of years – if they all landed in heaven after they died then you’d have to suspect that the place must be getting a mite crowded by now. I mean, if there’s a constant stream of new arrivals but nobody is dying, then heaven must be just about bursting at the seams.

Another thing.....I’m not sure that all the clientele in heaven would be quite the people of impeccable character that we might hope for. Most of the Mafia mobsters of the last 100 years or so have been of Sicilian or Italian heritage, both of which are strongly Catholic countries. It’s well documented that many Mafia gangsters have been regular attendees at Mass, and have populated the confession box from time to time. Given that in Catholic doctrine they are cleansed of their sins by confessing them to a priest and asking for forgiveness, and given also that many of these mobsters, though criminals of the worst kind, have in fact made significant positive contributions to their communities, you’d have to wonder if they will end up in heaven along with all the good people.

How about all those Islamic terrorists who are headed straight to heaven as their reward for blowing themselves up in their efforts to kill as many infidels as possible.
How about the former bikie gang members and various other criminal types who you see on TV every so often, claiming they’ve found God and have mended the error of their ways...will they end up in heaven as well?

I’m starting to think this heaven place might be very over-rated. Far from being a paradise, it could turn out to be an overcrowded hell hole that’s home to some pretty rough and disreputable characters. Rubbing shoulders with bikies and Mafia thugs and Islamic extremists is not exactly my scene - I’m not so sure I want to end up in heaven even if it does exist!

Returning to the creation question for just a moment .....science tells us there are hundreds or maybe even thousands of planets apart from the commonly known ones of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.
This begs the question to those who believe that God created Earth – did he create all the other planets as well? If so, this God fellow must have a prodigious capacity for work!

 

[Tink]

Thats right bunyip, live decent lives, so why have these sort of threads?

Atheists pushing their slogan, yet another religion.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Ok I get what is going on here. There is a lot of piss being taken.

The atheist theory relies on something sprining into being from nothing (i.e. without being created). The Universe it not eternal so it couldn't have always existed. How did it get into being?

Then I'm answered that there is no such thing as nothing, or how did God do it?


No place for logic in this thread obviously, you guys just tyring to have a laugh and wind me up with those answers.


I'm not going to bother. You are not seeking the truth.

I'm outta here. Catchya on the trading threads guys and girls!

But you've only ever studied Christianity, none of the other religions. Not only that but you have a very literal and rigid interpretation of Jesus' teachings. I offered an alternative view of Christianity in the work of Bernadette Roberts, which you would not even look at. What are you afraid of? That God will punish you for questioning him? I think there's a huge amount of fear lurking beneath the surface.

Say I read Darvas' book as my one and only trading book. I proclaim Darvas box theory is IT and therefore every other approach to trading is wrong. Good move? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'd want to do some comparisons, read much more widely, see how other people are approaching their trading and how successful they are at it. If my Darvas box trading was spectacularly successful, there will be no impetus to look elsewhere. Maybe that's where you're at now with your Christian faith - things are rosy in your world and there's no need to question anything. IVA up 70% and all is well.

But it only takes a moment's reflection to see that the world is far from a pleasant experience for many millions of people, including devout Christians. Do you ever ask yourself the hard questions?

 

[pavilion103]

But you've only ever studied Christianity, none of the other religions. Not only that but you have a very literal and rigid interpretation of Jesus' teachings. I offered an alternative view of Christianity in the work of Bernadette Roberts, which you would not even look at. What are you afraid of? That God will punish you for questioning him? I think there's a huge amount of fear lurking beneath the surface.

Say I read Darvas' book as my one and only trading book. I proclaim Darvas box theory is IT and therefore every other approach to trading is wrong. Good move? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'd want to do some comparisons, read much more widely, see how other people are approaching their trading and how successful they are at it. If my Darvas box trading was spectacularly successful, there will be no impetus to look elsewhere. Maybe that's where you're at now with your Christian faith - things are rosy in your world and there's no need to question anything. IVA up 70% and all is well.

But it only takes a moment's reflection to see that the world is far from a pleasant experience for many millions of people, including devout Christians. Do you ever ask yourself the hard questions?

I'll reply this this particular post.

I've only ever studied Christianity have I? I've never studied alternative views? Thanks for making this untrue assumption.

Quite to the contrary. In fact I've spent many hours on YouTube listening to atheists and evolutionists talk. I've studied many religions and philosophies. In fact I believe God ENCOURAGES us to ask questions and explore truth. Just because I'm led to one conclusion doesn't mean I've not considered a wide range of world views.

By the way IVA is up 85% get it right lol

 

[pavilion103]

And the world is a harsh place for many. I run a feeding the homeless program once a month on a Saturday morning. I'm also heading to the slums of India in late November this year. Will be a big eye opener.

More than anything this shows the consequences of a world that has rejected God and His principles for how to live life!

Without God we are free to live as we want with no accountability other than that we give ourselves, which may well be zero. And apparently if two thirds of the world is starving well tough....

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I'll reply this this particular post.

I've only ever studied Christianity have I? I've never studied alternative views? Thanks for making this untrue assumption.

Quite to the contrary. In fact I've spent many hours on YouTube listening to atheists and evolutionists talk. I've studied many religions and philosophies. In fact I believe God ENCOURAGES us to ask questions and explore truth. Just because I'm led to one conclusion doesn't mean I've not considered a wide range of world views.

By the way IVA is up 85% get it right lol

Noooo, you haven't studied other religions. It's very obvious.

When I asked you about the hard questions.....

There's a 10 year old child in Africa right now praying to God for food because he is starving to death. He is starving because both his parents were murdered. He prays and prays, he has been moral and righteous his whole life. But he doesn't just pray, he makes every effort to go looking for food.....and then he dies a very painful death. No burial, the carcass just gets picked to pieces by scavengers. Way to go, as they say. We're here in Australia tapping away on our keyboards with a latte in one hand, enjoying our 85% gains. Where does your God get off not helping this Christian? Is he really a "person" outside of time and space as you believe?

 

[FxTrader]

And the world is a harsh place for many. I run a feeding the homeless program once a month on a Saturday morning. I'm also heading to the slums of India in late November this year. Will be a big eye opener.

Commendable, but hopefully in the process you will focus just on the provision of food and not use the opportunity to spread religious propaganda to the poor and destitute.

More than anything this shows the consequences of a world that has rejected God and His principles for how to live life!

Presumably, you're referring to a Christian God and the principles jealousy, slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, hatred of gays etc. as expressed in the Old Testament as well as the ten commandments.

Without God we are free to live as we want with no accountability other than that we give ourselves, which may well be zero. And apparently if two thirds of the world is starving well tough....

Oh my, atheists don't care if people are starving, such are the musings of a religious fool. There is no accountability in Christendom, just ask for forgiveness whatever the sin and it's forgiven. Do you actually think before tapping out such trash on your keyboard?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Another child just died (just then)... this one of AIDS.

She studied the Bible every night after school, she was good to everyone, a true Christian.

Another one....

Another one.... this one prayed exactly as is written in the Bible.

What on earth is God doing? Why did Jesus say "Ask and it will be given to you?"

Is it possible your concept of God is entirely different to the truth of the matter?

This is just one of the many hard questions that can be posed. My philosophy about "how stuff works" can at least make some sense of such horror and allow for a God (of sorts).

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Presumably, you're referring to a Christian God and the principles jealousy, slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, hatred of gays etc. as expressed in the Old Testament as well as the ten commandments.

The New Testament was designed as a replacement text for the Old (outdated) Testament. There's nothing about jealousy, slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, hatred of gays in the 10 commandments.

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

1) If a virus has deposited DNA into us, the DNA has not been created. It already exists. It’s added it’s own DNA to our DNA. It isn’t new DNA. It’s not evolution. It's a mix up of the genes. We are not building any new DNA. It is old DNA mixed, no manufacturing of new DNA.

Let me guess Pavillion - you have decided that you won't read the book. I'm sure it will be available at your local library. Why trust my interpretation? Perhaps you should read it for yourself.

You said "If" above. It's not a debatable statement. We have genetic material in us that has come from viruses. If you doubt me...go find out for yourself, read more than one book, it's not my job to educate you.

Oh and many viruses don't have DNA at all - they have RNA, a less complex form of genetic code. Viruses also have the largest degree of neutral evolution. (you know what this is? Pure mutation of genetic code - essentially new DNA) like you said above. This is due to several factors, radiation, cross species interaction, lack of cell lipids forming permeable cell barriers etc etc

So where did the FIRST living thing get it’s DNA from?

In the virus example its simply using the same materials to make different structures. Just like the a builder uses the same materials to build different buildings.

Cool. Define "life" for me. Is a virus alive? How about a bacteria? an archaea? a prokaryotes? Some of those I just mentioned are really weird things. Some don't even have a cell nucleus, some don't have DNA at all only RNA (which is a different type of building material if you will), some can be found in conditions of extreme heat, cold, ph etc. Some have properties of mutualists or commensals. (they like to bond with other things). The point I'm getting at Pavillion is non-life to life is not a black and white, on-off proposition, but more shades of grey. The more we understand the world around us the more complex the definition of "Life".

On a bit of a different point: In terms of any similarities between us and a virus, well there are similarities between a Boeing 747, Ferrari and a bicycle. That’s where it ends. All it shows that it came from one mind. One designer. God.

We have genetics similar to a virus so we come from a virus. We have genetics similar to a banana too, did a banana it impregnate a woman?

You know, grown-ups solve their issues by having discussions. Children make ridiculous statements in attempts to distract others and obfuscate. Perhaps you might get more out of our discussion if you provide a cogent argument rather than trying to distract with ridiculous statements.

So I ask the same question. Give me an example of NEW genetic information being created. Not existing information being mixed!!

I'm not sure you understand what NEW genetic information is...why don't you tell me what you are looking for precisely.

2) Also this is not science. It is not observable. How it came into being has not been observed. An assumption has been made, a leap of faith. Just like a cup of coffee is on a table, we can only observe that it is there. Once we make assumptions about how it got there, then it is philosophical reasoning and not science.

Not observable and not science? What did you base that on? Oh right, you are making this blanket statement from a lack of information. That's OK we don't know what we don't know and you appear to have already made up your mind on the topic. It's a shame you are acting under this misconception and from a position of ignorance.

 

[FxTrader]

The New Testament was designed as a replacement text for the Old (outdated) Testament. There's nothing about jealousy, slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, hatred of gays in the 10 commandments.

The New Testament (what we call this collection of books today) was not "designed" to do any such thing and is primarily a collection of additional magic books detailing (with inconsistency, contradiction and many years after the original author's death in most cases) the mythology around the life of Jesus.

The Old Testament is riddled with accounts of jealousy, slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, hatred of gays, blood sacrifice etc. sanctioned by a (now reformed) temperamental God. If you read more carefully I said that such things exist along with (in addition to) the 10 commandments (that revered moral code scribed by the hand of God on stone tablets) - presumably the best effort the almighty could put in on the day. What Jesus does give us though is free pass, no more Thou shall not... but instead just ask and thou shall receive. A complete and utterly nonsensical fairy tale.

 

[bunyip]

Maybe Pavilion or one of the other Christains on here would care to watch last Monday's Four Corners program on this link.

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?WT.src...&gclid=COC4nZCB0bcCFUodpQoddWEAww#/view/39621

Then come back on this thread and explain to us why your God, who is widely touted as a god of compassion and love, stood by and did nothing while the young girls in this story, some of them as young as 11, were horribly abused by gangs of sub-human vermin.

And while you're at it, perhpas you can also explain why God stood by and did nothing to alleviate the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis.

Remember, this is the supposedly all-powerful god of compassion and love we're taking about here. Not some mere mortal like you and me who was powerless to intervene.

Answers please Christians! There are no shortage of examples where your god of compassion and love was found sadly wanting when it comes to living up to his reputation.

 

[pavilion103]

We are given a free will. Our choices will invariably impact others around us. It is inescapable in this world. We live in a fallen world where we see the consequences of our rejection of God.

God does not promise prosperity in this life, or comfort, or ease. The Bible says we must be obedient and ensure until the end.

Those who do will be rewarded.
"The suffering of the present moment cannot be compared to the glory that will be revealed"

This life is NOT fair. But that child that starved to death and trusted to God will receive their reward. Far above the suffering endured. They are rejoicing now.

Ultimate justice wins out in the end. THAT is the promise.