Religion IS crazy!

[Duckman#72]

Hello Duckman, it's not for me to interpret Bunyip's meaning, but I didn't take it as a simple comparison between the life's work of the new pope and a single collective action to help a community in a time of great need.

I'd have thought, and Bunyip you might like to clarify this, he was more thinking about actual 'hands on' giving to his community on an ongoing basis, as distinct from existing in the rarified atmosphere of the upper echelon of the Catholic church. Apparently Pope Francis has caught the bus a few times and has cooked his own food. I'm not sure how that renders him of service to his flock.

But then, my musings are bound to be tainted by my distaste for religion, and especially all the pomp, pageantry and ceremony of the extremely wealthy Catholic church which seems to maintain their outdated traditions whilst closing their eyes to the hideous abuse of children by so many of their members.

Hi Julia

I can understand people looking on at this process in bewilderment. However, in a world that is increasingly superficial and shallow, what is wrong with maintaining time-honoured and established traditions?

As far as Bunyips comments are concerned, I think it is quite clear what he meant - he asked if "he had ever done anything truely worthwhile for his fellow human beings?". He then went on to suggest that the contribution made by volunteers cleaning up after the floods are more worthy than what the Pope has ever achieved.

The Catholic Church will never win. It is interesting to note that even on this forum there are people that are more than happy to ask for and accept the prayers of others in times of despair and trouble, only to scoff and sneer at those same beliefs when the storm has passed.

Cheers
Duckman

 

[bellenuit]

The Catholic Church will never win. It is interesting to note that even on this forum there are people that are more than happy to ask for and accept the prayers of others in times of despair and trouble, only to scoff and sneer at those same beliefs when the storm has passed.

Examples? I sort of know the religious beliefs of some of the frequent contributors to ASF and don't recall any who deny religious beliefs and at the same time ask for prayers to comfort them in times of despair.

Personally, as an atheist, I am happy to accept the prayers of those who believe, but this is not hypocrisy on my behalf. I look beyond their belief in prayer and see their good intentions of wishing me well. On my frequent trips to Thailand, I often gladly accept the blessings of Buddhist monks, but whereas I do not hold in any regard the religious underpinnings of those blessings, I do appreciate the intent behind them.

 

[Tink]

Hi Julia

I can understand people looking on at this process in bewilderment. However, in a world that is increasingly superficial and shallow, what is wrong with maintaining time-honoured and established traditions?

As far as Bunyips comments are concerned, I think it is quite clear what he meant - he asked if "he had ever done anything truely worthwhile for his fellow human beings?". He then went on to suggest that the contribution made by volunteers cleaning up after the floods are more worthy than what the Pope has ever achieved.

The Catholic Church will never win. It is interesting to note that even on this forum there are people that are more than happy to ask for and accept the prayers of others in times of despair and trouble, only to scoff and sneer at those same beliefs when the storm has passed.

Cheers
Duckman

Wonderful post Duckman
Says it all.......

 

[explod]

The Catholic Church will never win. It is interesting to note that even on this forum there are people that are more than happy to ask for and accept the prayers of others in times of despair and trouble, only to scoff and sneer at those same beliefs when the storm has passed.

Cheers
Duckman

Your interpretation is narrow, disappointing and takes no account of the discussions on the collective human spirit, in that there is prayer.

There is a saying "blind faith" and another that one should never talk religion and politics.

There is no place for me here.

 

[bunyip]

Are you serious bunyip?

You are comparing the life work of the current pope to a weekend of shoveling and hosing by some volunteers swept up in a feel good moment.

Duckman

No Duckman – that’s not what I’m doing, as you well know.
Interesting to note that you pulled just one comment from my post, and focused your criticism on that. I mentioned a couple of other examples of people who have made it their life's work to help people, but you ignored those comments.

My point is that if someone is worthy of worship and adoration by millions of people worldwide, then you’d expect him or her to be really someone worth looking up to, someone who has done great service to humanity.
I didn’t say the pope hasn’t done anything, I simply wondered if Catholics who worship and admire him have ever questioned whether he’s ever done anything that truly justifies that level of worship and admiration.
In other words, what exactly do they see in him that justifies the completely ‘over the top’, fawning attitude that the pope evokes in millions of people who don’t know him from a bar of soap, and had never even heard of him before he became pope?

I note that you haven’t addressed the question I posed, preferring instead to criticize me for asking it.

 

[bunyip]

Hi Julia

I can understand people looking on at this process in bewilderment. However, in a world that is increasingly superficial and shallow, what is wrong with maintaining time-honoured and established traditions?

Yes, the word is increasingly superficial and shallow.
The pomp and ceremony, the silly costumes, the ridiculous rituals of the Catholic church are also superficial and shallow.

As far as Bunyips comments are concerned, I think it is quite clear what he meant - he asked if "he had ever done anything truely worthwhile for his fellow human beings?". He then went on to suggest that the contribution made by volunteers cleaning up after the floods are more worthy than what the Pope has ever achieved.


Cheers
Duckman

Bull***** – I simply gave some hands on examples of people helping their fellow human beings, and wondered if the pope has ever done any of that sort of thing.

 

[bunyip]

Duckman and Tink

Since you two seem so keen to champion the pope and the catholic church in general, I have a couple of questions for you that you may or may not wish to give me your views on.

Why does the catholic church persist in electing frail, elderly men as pope?

Do you think, as I do, that a younger man with more modern ideas, who’s healthy and vital and progressive, would be better suited to the job?

The new pope is 76 years old, (and an old looking 76 at that), and has only one lung. You’d have to question whether someone who’s pushing 80 can withstand the rigors of the job, the pressure, the international travel, the responsibility of decision-making, or even if he has the clarity of mind to handle it.
When they elected the last pope he already looked like he had one foot in the big happy hunting ground. And within a few years he was too frail and sick for the job.
The one before him was so frail and sick that it was almost painful to watch the poor old bloke on TV having to be propped up by his colleagues so he didn’t collapse while making a public address.

Surely a man in his late fifties or early sixties would bring a more suitable mix of physical vitality and progressive thinking to the job, without deserting the core values of the church?
I’d be interested in your thoughts if you’re willing to give them.

 

[bunyip]

Hello Duckman, it's not for me to interpret Bunyip's meaning, but I didn't take it as a simple comparison between the life's work of the new pope and a single collective action to help a community in a time of great need.

I'd have thought, and Bunyip you might like to clarify this, he was more thinking about actual 'hands on' giving to his community on an ongoing basis, as distinct from existing in the rarified atmosphere of the upper echelon of the Catholic church.

Thank you Julia - you've summed it up well.

Apparently Pope Francis has caught the bus a few times and has cooked his own food. I'm not sure how that renders him of service to his flock.

Neither can I. But the media, caught up in the ridiculous frenzy of this papal election, seem to think it's pretty special that someone catches a bus and cooks himself a meal once in a while.

But then, my musings are bound to be tainted by my distaste for religion, and especially all the pomp, pageantry and ceremony of the extremely wealthy Catholic church which seems to maintain their outdated traditions whilst closing their eyes to the hideous abuse of children by so many of their members.

Exactly - the pomp and ceremony, the outdated rituals and customs, the silly costumes - these things are obviously more important to the hierarchy of the catholic church than stamping out the sexual abuse of innocent children by priests.
I seriously think that the catholic church would lose its followers by the hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, and may eventually fold up, if they were to get rid of the pomp and ceremony and outdated rituals and silly costumes.
The same can probably be said of a number of other religions. But it’s the catholic religion above all others that has so much of the ceremony, rituals, costumes etc.

 

[McLovin]

Do you think, as I do, that a younger man with more modern ideas, who’s healthy and vital and progressive, would be better suited to the job?

Isn't what you describe anathema to the Church? Just look at the way they have behaved about the sexual abuse that they allowed to fester inside their institution, and some of the lunatic statements they have made regarding the use of condoms in Africa, to mention a couple. One day, they'll be dragged into the 19th century, but progressivism has no place in the RCC.

 

[Julia]

The Catholic Church will never win. It is interesting to note that even on this forum there are people that are more than happy to ask for and accept the prayers of others in times of despair and trouble, only to scoff and sneer at those same beliefs when the storm has passed.

I cannot actually think of any ASF member who eschews religion and then asks people to pray for him/her, myself very much included. Bellenuit puts it well below.

My best friend died last week after a short but dreadful illness. I went to her funeral yesterday. It was a simple testimony to how much we would miss her and our memories of the role she had played in our lives. No b/s about her now being in a better place etc or other banal utterings so beloved of the believers. No priests or ministers with their mumbo jumbo.

As far as your belief that 'the Catholic church will never win', no I don't suppose it will, as long as it refuses to adequately address its hideous assaults against so many children, whilst carrying on with virtually deifying some old man as being infallible.

Examples? I sort of know the religious beliefs of some of the frequent contributors to ASF and don't recall any who deny religious beliefs and at the same time ask for prayers to comfort them in times of despair.

Personally, as an atheist, I am happy to accept the prayers of those who believe, but this is not hypocrisy on my behalf. I look beyond their belief in prayer and see their good intentions of wishing me well. On my frequent trips to Thailand, I often gladly accept the blessings of Buddhist monks, but whereas I do not hold in any regard the religious underpinnings of those blessings, I do appreciate the intent behind them.

 

[bunyip]

Isn't what you describe anathema to the Church? Just look at the way they have behaved about the sexual abuse that they allowed to fester inside their institution, and some of the lunatic statements they have made regarding the use of condoms in Africa, to mention a couple. One day, they'll be dragged into the 19th century, but progressivism has no place in the RCC.

I think you've summed it up pretty well......the last thing they want is to put a younger man in charge, someone with progressive ideas and clear thinking who will drag them kicking and screaming into the modern age.
The ancient customs and queer rituals are what keeps many of those priests in a job. Without all the pomp and ceremony and rituals, many of them would no longer be needed.

As an example of the outdated rituals and customs of the catholic church, I cite the example of priests at funerals when they walk around the coffin, dressed in a silly costume of course, and mumble some words as they swing a little container back and forth while it exudes smoke.

This is akin to what I’ve seen African witchdoctors do......they adorn themselves with clay and feathers and other regalia to make themselves look important, and mumble words as they prance around a fire and wave a smoking stick in the air to signify something or other, I don’t know what, probably to ward off imaginary evil spirits or something.

 

[bunyip]

As far as your belief that 'the Catholic church will never win', no I don't suppose it will, as long as it refuses to adequately address its hideous assaults against so many children, whilst carrying on with virtually deifying some old man as being infallible.

It’s interesting to observe this deifying of the pope by the Catholic church.
Particularly when you consider what the Bible quotes as God’s warning about worshipping other gods apart from himself.

Now, it’s a heck of a long time since my mother rammed religion down my throat and forced me to go to Bible study. So my memory is a little haze here, but I’m pretty sure I recall that God’s word was supposedly along the lines of..... ‘You shall worship no god but me’. (or words to that effect).

And I do hope that nobody is going to come on here and claim that the pope is not being worshipped as a god-like figure........of course he is.

 

[DB008]

Religion is crazy? Do people go bonkers? Probably...

Islamist plot to assassinate far-right German politician foiled

Cologne - Police in Germany have foiled an assassination plot by Islamic extremists to kill Markus Beisicht, leader of the far-right Pro NRW party.
Markus Beisicht's anti-Islamic political stance landed him on a fatwa with unknown enemies determined to murder him. As Digital Journal reported last May a German Islamist urged fellow Salafists to collect personal details of Pro NRW members for the purpose of attacking them, an act the Interior Minister took seriously.
According to the Local four members of a radical Salafist group were arrested on Wednesday before their plot came to fruition. Explosives and weapons were found with the intended assassins.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345653#ixzz2Nagw3HIJ

 

[pixel]

Religion is crazy? Do people go bonkers? Probably...

Islamist plot to assassinate far-right German politician foiled

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345653#ixzz2Nagw3HIJ

While I don't feel particularly drawn in sympathy to any right-wing German group - too many bad precedents - I find it even more repulsive to try and settle the score by assassination. "Even if the intended victim is an ass, the assassin adds just another ass in."

Puns aside, I've always seen Salafists, Taliban, and similar nut jobs as right-wing extremists. Hence I consider the term Islamofascists an apt description for them. Their monomania differs in no way from the madness of any of the nationalist Leaders, Duces, Fuehrers of years past... or from the presumption of infallibility of one geriatric figurehead voted into the job by a group of similar self-important geriatrics...
But I guess that goes with the job: If you want to maintain power over your subjects, it's a good idea to dazzle them with the presumption of being ordained from highest authority, no discussion will be entered into.

 

[explod]

Religion is crazy? Do people go bonkers? Probably...

Islamist plot to assassinate far-right German politician foiled



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345653#ixzz2Nagw3HIJ

There is logic and psychologic there is chaotic and pshychotic

Facts or Beliefs

 

[pixel]

meanwhile, on a lighter side:



more at http://www.oddee.com/item_98520.aspx

 

[Ves]

I'd have thought, and Bunyip you might like to clarify this, he was more thinking about actual 'hands on' giving to his community on an ongoing basis, as distinct from existing in the rarified atmosphere of the upper echelon of the Catholic church. Apparently Pope Francis has caught the bus a few times and has cooked his own food. I'm not sure how that renders him of service to his flock.

Two things to keep in mind:

(Pope) Benedict XVI is 85 years old. I don't know what you mean by 'hands on', but your example of him helping to something as similar as the floods, is a bit rich. How many 85 years old do you know out there shovelling? The chance of someone his age experiencing a stroke from strenuous labour is a serious threat.

The second is his safety. He's a well known figure, in a world that has become increasingly hostile (terrorism) and unsafe for someone of his stature. Can you imagine the poor old guy getting assassinated when he is out and about trying to be 'hands on'?

I know you guys like being idealistic about some of these things, but sometimes reality is a preventative factor all on its own.

 

[Julia]

There is logic and psychologic there is chaotic and pshychotic

Facts or Beliefs

Um, explod, what is 'psychologic'? I cannot find such a word.
And perhaps you could explain "there is chaotic and psychotic", assuming your post has some underlying meaning?

Two things to keep in mind:

(Pope) Benedict XVI is 85 years old. I don't know what you mean by 'hands on', but your example of him helping to something as similar as the floods, is a bit rich. How many 85 years old do you know out there shovelling? The chance of someone his age experiencing a stroke from strenuous labour is a serious threat.

Oh, for heaven's sake, vesupria! Firstly, we were not talking about Benedict, but about Pope Francis.
Secondly, no one literally expects him to get out and shovel mud. Even you cannot seriously have imagined either Bunyip or I had such a literal thought.

Rather I was looking for someone to tell me what great work Pope Francis has done thus far, e.g. setting up organisations to help the poor and disadvantaged, regardless of their religious affiliations, objecting to the previous papal directive that condoms should not be used, despite the clear proof that such use significantly diminishes the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases, political stands against wars, furthering of nuclear armaments etc, years of determining to stamp out the hideous sexual abuse of the church's priests instead of covering it up.
The list is potentially endless.
Cooking his own cheese on toast and catching the occasional bus doesn't really cut it.

The second is his safety. He's a well known figure, in a world that has become increasingly hostile (terrorism) and unsafe for someone of his stature. Can you imagine the poor old guy getting assassinated when he is out and about trying to be 'hands on'?

In the bulletproof popemobile??? I cannot think of any other world figure more shrouded in security.
None of my few suggestions above require him to physically put himself at risk.

I know you guys like being idealistic about some of these things, but sometimes reality is a preventative factor all on its own.

Probably yes, such suggestions are idealistic, given the determination of the Catholic Church to wallow in its own wealth and the vulnerability of its disciples.

 

[Ves]

None of my few suggestions above require him to physically put himself at risk.

Forget I posted anything - but you should have made these a lot earlier in the thread. Did I miss them by any chance? Hence my misinterpretation when people were talking about shovelling mud after the floods and other hands on activities. We obviously have a different interpretation of the word. Or you're right with your implication that I can't read.

Most of the modern Popes have been in their 70s, so my post would stand for any of them, I believe. But it's irrelevant.

As far as I understand Francis has been a pretty big advocate of human rights and similar activism in Brazil. I honestly don't know why you guys are criticising him that area.

 

[burglar]

... In the bulletproof popemobile??? ...

The popemobile is bullet resistant.
You could shoot into it but would need a large calibre weapon.

Glass on the outside laminated to absorber on the inside.
Apparently one way.
So the Pope can shoot you from inside!

I watched one episode of QI with Stephen Fry
and now I am an expert on everything!

*Bow*