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Religion IS crazy!

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bunyip said:
Duckman and Tink

Since you two seem so keen to champion the pope and the catholic church in general, I have a couple of questions for you that you may or may not wish to give me your views on.

Why does the catholic church persist in electing frail, elderly men as pope?
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Bunyip, to your question, with age comes wisdom, and its a process that they must go through before they can become a Pope. Age isnt important to me.
I want the Church to stand strong with what is right and wrong and what they believe in.
Yes they have the tarnish of the abuse which they are dealing with, as with anything with humans. Corruption and abuse has been pouring out off all institutions, not just the Catholic Church - humans are the problem and needs to be dealt with in all.
As Duckman said, the Catholic Church cant win, no matter what they did, but for me, their teachings are important. The ten commandments stand steadfast and strong, and have survived through the years.

Interesting reading all these people shunning religion, without it, has it become a better place?
Drugs and alcohol to take them where?.
Clogging up our mental health...

I am strong in my thoughts and my beliefs and I dont change with the feel good factor for the day and I expect the Church to do the same. Traditions are important to me and I want them to stand strong with these things and through the generations for our children and childrens children.
As for the pomp etc that is mentioned in this thread, it hasnt changed through the years, they have stayed that way and dressed that way for years.
Its their tradition and the way they have always been -- I like that.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15678&page=13

My opinion
 
Tink said:
Bunyip, to your question, with age comes wisdom, and its a process that they must go through before they can become a Pope. Age isnt important to me.
I want the Church to stand strong with what is right and wrong and what they believe in.
Yes they have the tarnish of the abuse which they are dealing with, as with anything with humans. Corruption and abuse has been pouring out off all institutions, not just the Catholic Church - humans are the problem and needs to be dealt with in all.
As Duckman said, the Catholic Church cant win, no matter what they did, but for me, their teachings are important. The ten commandments stand steadfast and strong, and have survived through the years.

Interesting reading all these people shunning religion, without it, has it become a better place?
Drugs and alcohol to take them where?.
Clogging up our mental health...

I am strong in my thoughts and my beliefs and I dont change with the feel good factor for the day and I expect the Church to do the same. Traditions are important to me and I want them to stand strong with these things and through the generations for our children and childrens children.
As for the pomp etc that is mentioned in this thread, it hasnt changed through the years, they have stayed that way and dressed that way for years.
Its their tradition and the way they have always been -- I like that.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15678&page=13

My opinion
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Thank you Tink, for your reply.
It’s interesting that you cite ‘the wisdom of age’ as a reason for the choice of an old man as pope.

I do have to wonder just how much wisdom any of these popes really have, though, or more specifically, how much of that wisdom is evident in the decisions they make about Catholic policy. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying they have no wisdom at all, of course they do. Anyone living into their seventies and eighties can reasonably be expected to have gained considerable wisdom across a broad range of issues.

Yet it’s not hard to find examples of Catholic policy that are just plain silly and completely lacking in wisdom or common sense.
Example....their stance against condoms or any other forms of manufactured contraception, even in third world countries where over-population is causing immense hardship and poverty.
Another example....banning marriage for priests. It’s a no brainer that it’s completely abnormal for a person to take a vow of celibacy for their entire lives. It’s just plain ridiculous to expect any normal person, male or female, to shut themselves off from the most basic and necessary of human instincts. No wonder the priesthood has so many depraved queers who exploit children as an outlet for their sexual frustrations.
I very much doubt if the pope or anyone else could come up with a sensible reason why married priests would be any detriment to the Catholic church.

Anyway Tink, I thank you again for your reply – I appreciate you sharing your views even if I don’t agree with some of them.
Incidentally, despite my criticism of the Catholic church, I’m happy to acknowledge the good work they do in many areas. They put considerable effort and money into a number of charities, and in general, like most Christian churches, are more than willing to help their fellow humans.
Just over two years ago my area was in the thick of the floods that devastated parts of Queensland. When I was helping out at the flood refuge center in our village, feeding people, handing out clothes and bedding, mopping the floor etc. etc., there was a Catholic priest there who was counseling people, not just Catholics, who had been affected by the flood. I was impressed that he was also doing his share of the physical work, mopping the floor, feeding people etc. just like the rest of us were doing.
 
Tink said:
Bunyip, to your question, with age comes wisdom, and its a process that they must go through before they can become a Pope.
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Tink, there is perhaps a tipping point in the ageing process where wisdom acquired peaks and the degeneration of the brain can set in. I'd have thought someone of around 55 - 60 would still be sharp of thought, possessed of considerable wisdom if such has been sought, but not approaching senility.
I want the Church to stand strong with what is right and wrong
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But don't you see that this is so much of the problem with the way the church is viewed as abuse after abuse can no longer be concealed when victims speak up, after being terrified into silence for so many years?
The church has been a massive perpetrator of one of the most hideous crimes against thousands of children, many of whose entire lives have been affected as a result.

and what they believe in.
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Even when they believe in complete nonsense, such as banning condoms in Africa (or anywhere else) when the promotion of same could save so many lives and prevent so much misery via avoiding the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases?

Yes they have the tarnish of the abuse which they are dealing with, as with anything with humans. Corruption and abuse has been pouring out off all institutions, not just the Catholic Church - humans are the problem and needs to be dealt with in all.
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You don't think the unnatural imposition of a life of celibacy, suppressing one of life's most fundamental instincts, has anything to do with the abuse of vulnerable children who were defenceless against such breach of trust?

The ten commandments stand steadfast and strong, and have survived through the years.
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Millions of people follow the basic tenets of the Ten Commandments, which after all are just a set of rules designed to make society functional - not stealing, murdering etc etc. Not necessarily anything at all to do with religion. I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that people who do not embrace religion are impaired in their capacity to make decent moral decisions?

Interesting reading all these people shunning religion, without it, has it become a better place?
Drugs and alcohol to take them where?.
Clogging up our mental health...
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You are implying that, without religion, human beings will have a greater predilection toward the use of mind altering substances and mental disorders. If you could find a single piece of research to back that up I'd be amazed.

I am strong in my thoughts and my beliefs and I dont change with the feel good factor for the day and I expect the Church to do the same. Traditions are important to me and I want them to stand strong with these things and through the generations for our children and childrens children.
As for the pomp etc that is mentioned in this thread, it hasnt changed through the years, they have stayed that way and dressed that way for years.
Its their tradition and the way they have always been -- I like that.
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If religion is a comfort in your life, Tink, as I know it is in the lives of many, I get that absolutely. And I agree there can be something nice about some traditions. People who have been indoctrinated into religion all their lives will always find it possible to justify what others of us see as indefensible.

I'm not at all having a personal go at you, Tink. You put your views up without aggression or attack on other people and that's appreciated.
 
You are welcome bunyip and thanks for sharing your story :)
Julia, the government and many others have been massive perpetrators too regarding children, I am still waiting........
I have written my view on many occasions and I stand by what I wrote
Our views are different
 
bunyip said:
No Duckman – that’s not what I’m doing, as you well know.
Interesting to note that you pulled just one comment from my post, and focused your criticism on that. I mentioned a couple of other examples of people who have made it their life's work to help people, but you ignored those comments.
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Hi bunyip

I made no comment about Mother Teresa or Fred Hollows as I took no issue with them. Both fine examples of people helping humanity greatly. I only took exception to comparing the contribution to humanity made by the 20 thousand flood volunteers to that of the Pope. I thought it was disingenuous at best and mocking at worst to suggest that a Priest from Argentina, who is renowned for his work for the poor, had not provided similar support to his community when faced with adversity.

I agree with the comments made by yourself and Julia regarding the age of Pope. I think it does nothing for the image of the Church to see men appointed who are frail and failing. I too would like to see vibrant, progressive leadership. However the Pope is only the spiritual leader of the Catholic Church. In my opinion, far too much importance is placed on his influence at grass roots level by those outside the Church.

But at the end of the day, the Church is picking a spiritual leader for those Catholics. They are not looking for approval from those people whom believe religion to be antiquated, nonsensical, full of depraved individuals and notions. With all due respect, it wouldn't matter which Cardinal they appointed - I suspect it would not influence or alter the positions held by yourself and Julia. My intuition tells me it is not the person you have an issue with but rather the appointment of a Pope full stop.

I can understand people being apathetic to the Church. I can also understand people having atheistic viewpoints. What I can't understand is the openly disrespectful, intolerant and in some cases hostile attitudes shown towards the Catholic Church.

I am genuinely saddened that your overall experience with the Church has been so overwhelmingly negative. There are so many good people within the Church, just as there outside the Church. I have been in and around the Catholic Church for many decades including 5 years at a boys boarding school and I have never seen, heard or experienced anything that would pass for sexual impropriety. But I have seen plenty of good. As a quick example the Catholic brothers used to take students into town most weekends to help elderly townspeople with their gardening and odd jobs. Unfortunately this doesn't sell many newspapers.

I apologize if my comments offended. I rarely post about religion for fear of being labelled a "god bothering bible basher".

Duckman
 
Ah, Duckman. Back to the Duckman of old with a reasoned argument.:)
It's the characteristic I always associate with you - your devout Catholic affiliation standing alongside an understanding of how those not persuaded by religion will see the Church.

I expect you're right when you suggest that those of us who are agnostic or atheistic will be less than understanding of the hysteria surrounding the appointment of a new Pope, regardless of who he might be. All week on Radio National, listeners have been treated to breathless exchanges between Geraldine Doogue (in Rome) and Fran Kelly between the smoke signals. Doogue describes the past week as 'the most exciting of her entire life'.

It's just the overt contrast between all this hooplah and the mental picture of thousands of terrified abused children that gets to me.

It does not, however, take away from the great work some lay catholics do for others. St Vincent de Paul comes easily to mind. They are not far behind the Salvos in genuine caring for the disadvantaged.

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm reassured.:)
 
Julia said:
Ah, Duckman. Back to the Duckman of old with a reasoned argument.:)
It's the characteristic I always associate with you - your devout Catholic affiliation standing alongside an understanding of how those not persuaded by religion will see the Church.

I expect you're right when you suggest that those of us who are agnostic or atheistic will be less than understanding of the hysteria surrounding the appointment of a new Pope, regardless of who he might be. All week on Radio National, listeners have been treated to breathless exchanges between Geraldine Doogue (in Rome) and Fran Kelly between the smoke signals. Doogue describes the past week as 'the most exciting of her entire life'.

It's just the overt contrast between all this hooplah and the mental picture of thousands of terrified abused children that gets to me.

It does not, however, take away from the great work some lay catholics do for others. St Vincent de Paul comes easily to mind. They are not far behind the Salvos in genuine caring for the disadvantaged.

Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm reassured.:)
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Hi Julia

As a catholic in a small country town trying to raise the 4 ducklings the best way we can, Mrs Duckman and I are literally a world away from the throngs of celebrating devotees in Rome. The media attention given to this has been completely over the top. The crosses over to Mel on sunrise in particular have been cringe worthy. The media ask anyone they can get their hands on about the "type of Pope" he will be. I'll tell you for free - he'll be aged, he'll be conservative( even if he is progressive:D), he will be learned, and he will have failings. It is ironic that, to me, it almost seems to be the non-Catholics that are looking at him as if he should be some kind of messiah. The "what has he ever done" seems more important to non-Catholics.

Plenty has even made of his desire to cook for himself and take a bus to work. These are hardly newsworthy items. They certainly are not prerequisites to become a Pope, but neither should they be reasons to deride and disrespect. He is just a man when all said and done.

If I were a non-catholic the coverage would completely give me the @&$@s! However, that is not the fault of the church. That is just today's media cycle.

I know the people in st peters square were almost weeping with joy, and like you and bunyip I question such devotion. Don't confuse these few (when compared to to whole of the catholic community) to grass roots, plain vanilla catholic parishioners. Nothing changed at our place:)

Julia, I know you called me devout, but I consider myself anything but. I am full of contradictions - I don 't like the pomp, but I am a stickler for traditions; I don't believe the Pope should be worshipped but fully believe and support him in his role a spiritual leader of the church; I fully believe in the values of the church as a moral compass but attend catholic church less than once a month:p:

Cheers
Duckman
 
Duckman#72 said:
Hi Julia

As a catholic in a small country town trying to raise the 4 ducklings the best way we can, Mrs Duckman and I are literally a world away from the throngs of celebrating devotees in Rome. The media attention given to this has been completely over the top. The crosses over to Mel on sunrise in particular have been cringe worthy. The media ask anyone they can get their hands on about the "type of Pope" he will be. I'll tell you for free - he'll be aged, he'll be conservative( even if he is progressive:D), he will be learned, and he will have failings. It is ironic that, to me, it almost seems to be the non-Catholics that are looking at him as if he should be some kind of messiah. The "what has he ever done" seems more important to non-Catholics.

Plenty has even made of his desire to cook for himself and take a bus to work. These are hardly newsworthy items. They certainly are not prerequisites to become a Pope, but neither should they be reasons to deride and disrespect. He is just a man when all said and done.

If I were a non-catholic the coverage would completely give me the @&$@s! However, that is not the fault of the church. That is just today's media cycle.

I know the people in st peters square were almost weeping with joy, and like you and bunyip I question such devotion. Don't confuse these few (when compared to to whole of the catholic community) to grass roots, plain vanilla catholic parishioners. Nothing changed at our place:)

Julia, I know you called me devout, but I consider myself anything but. I am full of contradictions - I don 't like the pomp, but I am a stickler for traditions; I don't believe the Pope should be worshipped but fully believe and support him in his role a spiritual leader of the church; I fully believe in the values of the church as a moral compass but attend catholic church less than once a month:p:

Cheers
Duckman
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I probably have a similar background to you and the opinion expressed in this post of yours resonates with how I felt before becoming an atheist. But the more and more I thought about it, the more it all seemed non-sensical.
 
Duckman#72 said:
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But at the end of the day, the Church is picking a spiritual leader for those Catholics. They are not looking for approval from those people whom believe religion to be antiquated, nonsensical, full of depraved individuals and notions. With all due respect, it wouldn't matter which Cardinal they appointed - I suspect it would not influence or alter the positions held by yourself and Julia. My intuition tells me it is not the person you have an issue with but rather the appointment of a Pope full stop.

I can understand people being apathetic to the Church. I can also understand people having atheistic viewpoints. What I can't understand is the openly disrespectful, intolerant and in some cases hostile attitudes shown towards the Catholic Church.

I am genuinely saddened that your overall experience with the Church has been so overwhelmingly negative. There are so many good people within the Church, just as there outside the Church. I have been in and around the Catholic Church for many decades including 5 years at a boys boarding school and I have never seen, heard or experienced anything that would pass for sexual impropriety. But I have seen plenty of good. As a quick example the Catholic brothers used to take students into town most weekends to help elderly townspeople with their gardening and odd jobs. Unfortunately this doesn't sell many newspapers.
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Agree completely with this section of your post Duckman, well said.
 
Hmm...

Britons afraid to challenge radical Islam, says former Obama adviser

British people are too afraid to offend a "vocal and aggressive" section of the Muslim community who demand that their cultural values are accepted by wider society, according to a former adviser to Barack Obama.

Professor Lawrence Krauss said he had been shocked when taking part at a debate hosted by an Islamic group at a leading British university to find that men and women were segregated.

The professor, a leading physicist and prominent atheist, threatened to walk out unless organisers agreed to let men and women sit together, which was eventually agreed - but was then astonished to find himself being accused of intolerance by angry members of the audience.

He said there had been no such problems when he recently took part in a similar debate in Australia.

But he suggested in Britain people were often too polite to object to such practices as well as being cowed by those eager to protest whenever they felt "their cultural norms are not being met".

He said: "People are not only afraid to offend, but afraid to offend a vocal and aggressive group of people.

There is a segment of the Islamic community that is very vocal about this."

The professor said: "I think the notion that these cultural norms should be carried out within a broader society that not only doesn't share them but that is free and open is a very serious problem."

Authorities at University College London have launched an investigation into the event last Saturday, at which people who attended were separated into men, women and coupled seating areas - with women at the back.

Professor Krauss said he was later told by one woman who attended that she went into the lecture theatre holding hands with a male friend and pretending he was her boyfriend to be able to sit in the mixed section.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9932108/Britons-afraid-to-challenge-radical-Islam-says-former-Obama-adviser.html
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burglar said:
If God is everywhere, why attend a church?
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That has been used by me to justify many a week off burglar! :xyxthumbs Perhaps the easiest way to explain is to repeat a phrase of the Mass....."it is right to give our thanks and praise".

I appreciate the feedback Bellenuit, and tink, thanks for the comments.

Duckman
 
Duckman#72 said:
I It is ironic that, to me, it almost seems to be the non-Catholics that are looking at him as if he should be some kind of messiah. The "what has he ever done" seems more important to non-Catholics.
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Well, I suppose we are wondering what it is that makes this particular cardinal stand out from the others.
Don't Catholics themselves need justification of his appointment? If a country appoints a political leader, and the situation seems not dissimilar, we all have a pretty good idea of the achievements and characteristics that rendered the candidate so appealing to those who elected him/her.

Or perhaps the whole process is like the political factions and it's all about who is most able to lobby whom?

I don't think it's unreasonable that people question the whole process.

Julia, I know you called me devout, but I consider myself anything but
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I suppose to me anyone who goes to church is 'devout'.

I fully believe in the values of the church as a moral compass
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I raised this with Tink and she didn't respond. Not sure whether you will feel more inclined to comment?
It seems to most of us onlookers that the church's 'moral compass' is significantly poorly aligned, given the appalling abuse of innocent children followed by the woeful hypocrisy of covering it up for so long. It has only been forced into the open now because of the courage of some of the victims in coming forward.

So I do not get how the church is the arbiter of morals and get pretty irritated at the suggestion by many believers that those who do not follow a/the religion are as a result disposed to have a faulty grasp of moral and ethical behaviour.
 
Julia said:
So I do not get how the church is the arbiter of morals and get pretty irritated at the suggestion by many believers that those who do not follow a/the religion are as a result disposed to have a faulty grasp of moral and ethical behaviour.
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Absolutely agree.

Most western democratic legal systems have the higher ground in maintaining ethics. The rod speaks louder than the word.

May well have had considerable influence in original structure but without looking at it such ethics between cooperative peoples will have had a history greater than the scriptures would be my guess.
 
US clergy victims make demands of new pope

LOS ANGELES (AP) ”” Most Roman Catholics are rejoicing at the election of Pope Francis, but alleged victims of clergy abuse in the U.S. are demanding swift and bold actions from the new Jesuit pontiff: Defrock all molester priests and the cardinals who covered up for them, formally apologize, and release all confidential church files.

Adding to their distrust are several multimillion dollar settlements the Jesuits paid out in recent years, including $166 million to more than 450 Native Alaskan and Native American abuse victims in 2011 for molestation at Jesuit-run schools across the Pacific Northwest. The settlement bankrupted the Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus. The order also paid $14 million to settle nine California cases.

"I would like to see this pope stand up and say to those cardinals, 'You need to square this away and change everything that was covered up,' " said Ken Smolka, a 70-year-old retired actor who claimed in a lawsuit he was abused as a teen by a Jesuit priest. "You need to get them on their knees, and let them spend the rest of their lives on their knees praying for the victims."
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http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-clergy-sex-victims-want-change-new-pope
 
Julia said:
Well, I suppose we are wondering what it is that makes this particular cardinal stand out from the others.
Don't Catholics themselves need justification of his appointment? If a country appoints a political leader, and the situation seems not dissimilar, we all have a pretty good idea of the achievements and characteristics that rendered the candidate so appealing to those who elected him/her.

Or perhaps the whole process is like the political factions and it's all about who is most able to lobby whom?

I don't think it's unreasonable that people question the whole process.
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Hi Julia

No I don't look for justification in this appointment. I see it as a very different process to an election of a political leader. Our political process involves a voting electorate (which I have a direct influence albeit small), it involves a political party that has a set agenda, and it involves individuals that, in some cases have spent substantial amounts of time in a life outside of politics. For these reasons, we spend considerable time getting to know the candidates. Not only that, but the policies between the parties can be extreme.

Now look at the appointment of the Pope. As I have expressed earlier, the difference between the candidates is marginal. All are quite elderly men, all have spent considerable time studying theology, all have spent their entire lives dedicated to the Church. Some are more moderate and some extremely conservative, however all follow the teachings of Christ. Are they infallible? No. Do more worthy candidates miss out? Most definitely (depending on your agenda). Generally speaking there is very little difference between the majority of the cardinals. Some will call me extremely gullible for assuming that the appointed cardinal does not have a history of sordid sexual abuse or at least covering them up. I accept that. I could make the same case back and say those that believe he would have a history of sordid sexual cover ups are extremely cynical.

Generally speaking, the sexual monsters in the church are the rogue bastard priests who don't rise through the ranks. They don't want to anyway as they lose contact and access to grass roots parishioners (victims). Certainly the cardinals have had to work out the best way to address sexual abuse claims and many have come up very short.

The other point to make Julia is that local catholic parishioners do not have a say in the appointment of their local parish priest - let alone the appointment of the Pope:eek: Am I interested? For sure. Am I looking for justification? No.

As for your other question about the moral compass, I'd be happy to answer later but I have to go for now. It is a subject very close to me and one that I think we see very differently on. :)

Cheers

Duckman
 
Duckman#72 said:
As for your other question about the moral compass, I'd be happy to answer later but I have to go for now. It is a subject very close to me and one that I think we see very differently on. :)

Cheers

Duckman
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I look forward to that, Duckman.
 
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