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Religion IS crazy!

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explod said:
Religion grows from poverty and by support from Regimes wanting control.

The Muslim problem is gaining strength because most are living in abject poverty. If proper education was encouraged and financed by western nations, to the tune of defense spending, much of today's problems would go away.

Most will know I think of myself as an atheist. However I believe in a collective spirit and that the fundamental ethics from good religion is needed for the peace of the overall community. Human habit is not something we can just change like that and succeed. In framing an objective I was taught that "it has to be achievable"

So what we do need to focus on is education more than any other thing or subject. The truth of science taken up by the young is the answer. I have so much to say on this topic but not the time right now.
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yes, but Islam has halted education and we can't make it happen because we'd be deemed to be interfering with their internal politics. At one point they were the most advanced society on the planet but for some reason resorted to dogmatic following of the text. Their downfall.
 
kennas said:
yes, but Islam has halted education and we can't make it happen because we'd be deemed to be interfering with their internal politics. At one point they were the most advanced society on the planet but for some reason resorted to dogmatic following of the text. Their downfall.
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Depends, in a lot of Africa rape and aids is reducing because aid agencies are providing educational opportunities for women.

If as much effort as bombing/military action to hold resource tenements was put into education, things would gradually turn around.

Like the women of India currently revolting, if there was a way (support) for the Islamic women to stand up for equality they too would gradually take that road.
 
explod said:
Depends, in a lot of Africa rape and aids is reducing because aid agencies are providing educational opportunities for women.

If as much effort as bombing/military action to hold resource tenements was put into education, things would gradually turn around.

Like the women of India currently revolting, if there was a way (support) for the Islamic women to stand up for equality they too would gradually take that road.
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It's a fine line governments and NGOs tread in influencing foreign regimes in their policy and politics to be more in alignment with our own values. Step over the mark and it can set a course of action back decades. Fiji is a classic example of finely tuned and nuanced Gov policy on trying to influence a society without stepping over the mark. We've been failing here.
 
kennas said:
yes, but Islam has halted education and we can't make it happen because we'd be deemed to be interfering with their internal politics. At one point they were the most advanced society on the planet but for some reason resorted to dogmatic following of the text. Their downfall.
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+1

Think of the Pakistani teenage girl, who was shot for promoting study.
Think of the acid attacks on schoolkids.

The Islamofascists want their peoples to remain poor and uneducated, in order to outbreed the rest of the world and by sheer weight of numbers infiltrate every place on Earth. And we oh so tolerant and humane Westerners let it all happen and take all those "poor refugees" in.

I'm not denying the abject poverty, nor their understandable desperation to get out of there. But the least we ought to do is demand they leave their baggage at the border. Maybe, instead of locking them up for years in Vanuatu etc with nothing to do, teach them "the Western ways".
I know, that'll never happen. All the bleeding hearts will demand "our government" grant all comers full rights to keep their "culture" and "enrich" ours. And if they choose to keep indoctrinating their kids, give them understanding and the baby bonus and the Dole.
 
kennas said:
Seems to be more and more anti Islam sentiment in the general community now. Although I definitely do not support any alternative religious point of view, I think a stronger nationalistic approach is appropriate right now. Lets hope we do not allow our country to go down the UK and French path where English people are afraid to walk around their own streets or be stuck in an area wanting to install foreign religious based laws.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/of-race-religion-and-politics-20130309-2fsje.html
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this is abit of a worry Kennas, is this how Hitler started?
we dont want history repeating..
I feel for any that may be nothing like these posts, you seem to be hitting on the extremists.
 
explod said:
Religion grows from poverty and by support from Regimes wanting control.
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The regimes that want control are the competing major religions themselves, Islam, Christianity and their derivatives. It's earthly power they crave by claiming heavenly authority. Poverty plays a role but the indoctrination of children in religious mythology and the cultural pressure placed on them to conform is the key growth engine for religion.

The Muslim problem is gaining strength because most are living in abject poverty. If proper education was encouraged and financed by western nations, to the tune of defense spending, much of today's problems would go away.
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I use to think this way but education and literacy alone do not override religious programming. The U.S. is a good example of this. I have met many very intelligent, well educated Muslims and Christians who totally suspend their intellect when discussing their faith.

The only education most religious people want for their children is one that does not interfere in any way with their particular blind faith. Hence the proliferation of religious schools, the demonization of evolution theory and the attack on science and the scientific method in general. Better education alone is not the answer, debunking religious mythology and curbing the religious indoctrination of children are equally important. I totally support the likes of Chris Hitchens (sadly departed) and Sam Harris in their efforts to unmask religion as the fraud it is.
 
Sunni Council issues fatwa against attack on minorities

LAHORE – Thirty scholars from the Sunni Ittehad Council have decreed a joint fatwa against attack on minorities, declaring that onslaught on life and property of Christians is against Islam.

According to a press statement on Sunday, the muftis said Islam protects lives and properties of minorities who are treated as equal citizens in an Islamic state.

The scholars said the Joseph Colony vandals went against the Islamic laws.

“Islam is a religion of peace and harmony and the Ulema are appealed to spread this message among the masses to promote tolerance,” they said, stressing that an Islamic state guards minorities and government compensate the damage in such incidents.
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http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/lahore/11-Mar-2013/sunni-council-issues-fatwa-against-attack-on-minorities
 
FxTrader said:
The regimes that want control are the competing major religions themselves, Islam, Christianity and their derivatives. It's earthly power they crave by claiming heavenly authority. Poverty plays a role but the indoctrination of children in religious mythology and the cultural pressure placed on them to conform is the key growth engine for religion.

I use to think this way but education and literacy alone do not override religious programming. The U.S. is a good example of this. I have met many very intelligent, well educated Muslims and Christians who totally suspend their intellect when discussing their faith.

The only education most religious people want for their children is one that does not interfere in any way with their particular blind faith. Hence the proliferation of religious schools, the demonization of evolution theory and the attack on science and the scientific method in general. Better education alone is not the answer, debunking religious mythology and curbing the religious indoctrination of children are equally important. I totally support the likes of Chris Hitchens (sadly departed) and Sam Harris in their efforts to unmask religion as the fraud it is.
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Great post FXTrader - you've explained it very succintly. I have been watching the charade presently happening in Rome - otherwise intelligent, well-educated, normal people kissing cardinals' rings, waiting to grovel at the feet of their new leader........
 
FxTrader said:
The only education most religious people want for their children is one that does not interfere in any way with their particular blind faith. Hence the proliferation of religious schools, the demonization of evolution theory and the attack on science and the scientific method in general. Better education alone is not the answer, debunking religious mythology and curbing the religious indoctrination of children are equally important. I totally support the likes of Chris Hitchens (sadly departed) and Sam Harris in their efforts to unmask religion as the fraud it is.
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Very well put. :xyxthumbs

However the debunking and curbing of indoctrination in my view is still part of an overall educational plan too.
 
Best of the thread I'd say.

If anyone was to educate children along the lines of "God doesn't exist. Don't read the Koran/Upanishads/Bible/Pali Canon/Baghavad Gita...", that's just as controlling and manipulative and closed-minded as the behaviours of those who are (rightly IMO) criticized on this thread.
 
explod said:
He hee, got me,

the best well said of the night. :)


Hypothetical in my own defence "an educational plan"
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I wasn't trying to 'get you'.
I thought perhaps I'd missed out on some absolute gem of policy the Greens have dreamed up.
Or that perhaps you were planning to favour us with your own ideas about how we should be indoctrinated into or out of religion.
 
Julia said:
I wasn't trying to 'get you'.
I thought perhaps I'd missed out on some absolute gem of policy the Greens have dreamed up.
Or that perhaps you were planning to favour us with your own ideas about how we should be indoctrinated into or out of religion.
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Proper free education is not indoctrination. It is the means for a person to grow up making their own informed decisions.

I try not to impose ideas but present facts on which together we may build better ways. Or "an ageing man who is dreaming" perhaps
 
explod said:
I try not to impose ideas but present facts on which together we may build better ways. Or "an ageing man who is dreaming" perhaps
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I know you're addressing Jules, but how do you know what a fact is? I ask this because the most insightful authors I have ever read say that there is no such thing as a fact.

Would you present the 'facts' of modern science only? Science has its very own dogmatic ways.

I know people who proudly say that "I only believe things I can see", to which I reply "you don't believe in love? You've never felt love? How many scientists know what love is? And what about microwaves and radio waves - can you see them?".
 
Gringotts Bank said:
If anyone was to educate children along the lines of "God doesn't exist. Don't read the Koran/Upanishads/Bible/Pali Canon/Baghavad Gita...", that's just as controlling and manipulative and closed-minded as the behaviours of those who are (rightly IMO) criticized on this thread.
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There is an all to common misconception among the religious and their apologists that atheism or non-belief is in fact a form of faith itself (non-faith = faith) and that athiests assert a God does not exist. In fact, atheists simply express a view that there is no credible evidence to support the existence of any man-made God concept yet concocted by human imagination. Atheists I know are very "open-minded" on the question of origins, they simply don't assign any credibility to the metaphysical nonsense dreamed up by the religious to claim immortality of the soul and Godly origins.

People should devote some time to reading selected religious texts to discover for themselves just how extraordinary claims by delusional people can engender such strong faith in supernatural imaginings among deceived believers.
 
Gringotts Bank;759974]I know you're addressing Jules, but how do you know what a fact is? I ask this because the most insightful authors I have ever read say that there is no such thing as a fact.
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The sun comes up in the morning, it is a fact because we can see and feel it warm our skin. God appeared to Abraham, but it is a myth and to some a belief, so is Santa Clause.

Would you present the 'facts' of modern science only? Science has its very own dogmatic ways.
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Modern science, old science where is the difference, it is science what else can prove a tangible thing that can be seen, felt, tasted or heard. And having studied Metaphysics in Theology I do know the demarcation lines.


I know people who proudly say that "I only believe things I can see", to which I reply "you don't believe in love? You've never felt love? How many scientists know what love is? And what about microwaves and radio waves - can you see them?".
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Love comes from direct experience with a person, sound, speech, personality, looks, compatibility time together and one could go on. Love in the religious sense, of God is created in the mind by repetition so that it becomes imprinted on the sub-conscious. Very powerful forces, but subconscious feelings/beliefs are not facts per Se. It is often this type of imprinting that causes a lot of psychosis in many individuals.
 
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