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Religion IS crazy!

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Value Collector said:
no one is saying you have to be best friends with a person in a burka, just don't ban them wearing it.



I didn't say that the popularity of an argument makes it invalid, just that is doesn't increase it validity.

A lot of people point out that a certain idea is popular in an attempt to add weight to their argument, this is where the fallacy is at play.

eg, saying other countries in Europe have done it, is an attempt to say "Other countries have done it, therefore it must be be ok, or therefore My opinion has more weight.

By doing this you are avoiding adding an actual demonstration that your idea is valid, and instead adding an appeal to popularity, which is a logical fallacy, doing that will get you to the wrong logical out come.
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What about showing a video of ' 10 hours wearing a bikini, in a muslim country'.

You would be videoing in a prison, or a stoning would be taking place.lol You are funny.

What everyone gets out of shape about is, they can wear clothing that doesn't fit into our culture and country.

Yet they lay criminal charges, if you don't conform to their dress code, while in their country.

Who are the fools, us obviously, we are so busy trying to make our country replicate theirs.

We may find that we will be jumping on boats, to get away from their lifestyle, in the end.
 
sptrawler said:
We may find that we will be jumping on boats, to get away from their lifestyle, in the end.
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Real estate is so unbelievably expensive in Sydney, I was thinking of jumping on the other boat - "realestate.com.syria".

What with all the refugee exodus there must be some real bargains to be had.:rolleyes:
 
sptrawler said:
What about showing a video of ' 10 hours wearing a bikini, in a muslim country'.

You would be videoing in a prison, or a stoning would be taking place.lol You are funny.

What everyone gets out of shape about is, they can wear clothing that doesn't fit into our culture and country.

Yet they lay criminal charges, if you don't conform to their dress code, while in their country.

Who are the fools, us obviously, we are so busy trying to make our country replicate theirs.

We may find that we will be jumping on boats, to get away from their lifestyle, in the end.
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Why should what overseas sea countries do affect the freedoms we enjoy here?

I support women's rights to choose to where what ever they feel comfortable in, all I am saying is that I can see why girls from a conservative culture like some brands of Muslims would feel comfortable wearing a hijab/burka, who does it harm?
 
bellenuit said:
VC, although I agree with you on many things, this is one area that I don't.

The burka and the slightly less abhorrent niqab are not simply a choice of clothing but are a symbol of Islamic oppression of women. An assumption you are making is that the woman are wearing them voluntarily, whereas there is evidence that many are forced to do so by their husbands, other family members or peers. I have read numerous articles written by Muslim women who want a ban on those garments simple because it would allow them the excuse not to wear them. We are just assisting their oppression by allowing such oppressive customs to continue.

That they are clearly oppressive garments is obvious with those wearing them extremely limited in their choice of occupation or career. I think (from memory) some schools have already won the right to prevent teachers from wearing those garments as they impede a very important function of the teacher/pupil relationship, namely the conveying of information and emotion through facial expression. They also rule out the ability of the wearer to obtain employment in positions that are customer facing as again the ability of the wearer to communicate with the customer is severely limited if facial expressions are concealed. One only needs a rudimentary schooling in salesmanship to realise the importance of non-verbal communication in sales situations.

I agree with your arguments on the evolution of morality, with what we today regard as moral being the result of reason and education and not the gift of some imaginary deity. It should equally be as obvious from our understanding of the origins of those types of clothing that they came about not as a fashion statement that the women themselves wanted, but though the unwanted imposition of extreme Islamic interpretations by misogynistic Islamic leaders. Due to indoctrination over several generations (as their widespread use is quite recent), many Muslim women now even feel uncomfortable not wearing those garments.

It is our moral duty to provide a society where Muslim women can express themselves as freely as any other women and banning clothing that symbolises and continues their oppression is important. Yes, there may be some who really want to continue wearing those garments and may feel we are prohibiting their freedom, but it is for the greater good (much like banning the use if the Confederate Flag in public buildings in the US southern states). We are in a sense providing an environment that allow them to be unindoctrinated (if that's a word).

Kabul 1970s and today.

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i

I don't think banning clothing is the answer, a lot of Muslim women don't see the clothes as oppression, they would see us banning it as oppressive, this is a big broad country, with all sorts of freedom, if they don't want to where the hijab, they don't have to.
 
Macquack said:
What is the point of that video? It is a beat up.

Dressing up or down does not justify any religion.
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I am not justifying their religion, just pointing out that wearing the hijab means the girls get bothered less, cat calling and sexual comments may not bother an Aussie girl as much, but to a conservative Muslim who is uncomfortable interacting with strange males, it can make for a more comfortable walk through the city.
 
Value Collector said:
Why should what overseas sea countries do affect the freedoms we enjoy here?

I support women's rights to choose to where what ever they feel comfortable in, all I am saying is that I can see why girls from a conservative culture like some brands of Muslims would feel comfortable wearing a hijab/burka, who does it harm?
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I ride a motorcycle, I am called upon to remove it all the time, as it is seen as a risk having my face obscured.

It boils back to the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

They leave a muslim country, because of persicution, they move through several muslim countries, to enter our country.

Why can't they adopt our culture or at least modify their own? It is a difficult situation, that isn't going to be resolved easily.
 
Value Collector said:
i

if they don't want to where the hijab, they don't have to.
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But that is simply not true as I have stated based on many articles I have read. They have to live within their strict Islamic society (within the broader Australian society) and not conforming to what the males of that society want is very difficult and dangerous for them. Look at the death threats made against the most vocal Muslim and ex-Muslim women who have spoken out against Islamic oppression, women who are in a sense partly protected by their notoriety and also by the freedom to escape their environment due to the financial independence coming with that notoriety and imagine what it is like for the poorly educated and financially dependent women stuck in their cultural ghettos to try and exhibit the same independence of dress. They need us to help them escape their chains not show tolerance for what is going on.

Look at the two different pictures of the Afghan women above. Due you think for a moment that they are happy with the current situation? Women in Islamic societies have gone backwards in the last 50 years due to the rise of Islamic extremism and fundamentalism. They are the victims. Just because they and the males have been transplanted to Australia doesn't mean that they are now free to do as they please.
 
bellenuit said:
But that is simply not true as I have stated based on many articles I have read. They have to live within their strict Islamic society (within the broader Australian society) and not conforming to what the males of that society want is very difficult and dangerous for them. Look at the death threats made against the most vocal Muslim and ex-Muslim women who have spoken out against Islamic oppression, women who are in a sense partly protected by their notoriety and also by the freedom to escape their environment due to the financial independence coming with that notoriety and imagine what it is like for the poorly educated and financially dependent women stuck in their cultural ghettos to try and exhibit the same independence of dress. They need us to help them escape their chains not show tolerance for what is going on.

Look at the two different pictures of the Afghan women above. Due you think for a moment that they are happy with the current situation? Women in Islamic societies have gone backwards in the last 50 years due to the rise of Islamic extremism and fundamentalism. They are the victims. Just because they and the males have been transplanted to Australia doesn't mean that they are now free to do as they please.
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Well we don't ask people to change their behaviour, unless they are bikies, they can't wear club logos .lol

It will take a few public anti social incidents, before we will demand the same, of other members of society.lol
 
sptrawler said:
I ride a motorcycle, I am called upon to remove it all the time, as it is seen as a risk having my face obscured.

It boils back to the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

They leave a muslim country, because of persicution, they move through several muslim countries, to enter our country.

Why can't they adopt our culture or at least modify their own? It is a difficult situation, that isn't going to be resolved easily.
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You that's because there have bee not lot of instances where people have committed violent crimes wearing helmets, is that happening with burkas?

Who are you talking about? A lot of Muslims are born here
 
bellenuit said:
But that is simply not true as I have stated based on many articles I have read. They have to live within their strict Islamic society (within the broader Australian society) and not conforming to what the males of that society want is very difficult and dangerous for them. Look at the death threats made against the most vocal Muslim and ex-Muslim women who have spoken out against Islamic oppression, women who are in a sense partly protected by their notoriety and also by the freedom to escape their environment due to the financial independence coming with that notoriety and imagine what it is like for the poorly educated and financially dependent women stuck in their cultural ghettos to try and exhibit the same independence of dress. They need us to help them escape their chains not show tolerance for what is going on.

Look at the two different pictures of the Afghan women above. Due you think for a moment that they are happy with the current situation? Women in Islamic societies have gone backwards in the last 50 years due to the rise of Islamic extremism and fundamentalism. They are the victims. Just because they and the males have been transplanted to Australia doesn't mean that they are now free to do as they please.
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If a woman is trapped in an abusive situation, banning the burka is not going to change that, she needs to leave that situation, We have a lot of support in Australia for women who need to leave abusive relationships.
 
Macquack said:
Real estate is so unbelievably expensive in Sydney, I was thinking of jumping on the other boat - "realestate.com.syria".

What with all the refugee exodus there must be some real bargains to be had.:rolleyes:
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Knock down rebuild? Half the job's already done.
 
BRITISH MUSLIMS LAUNCH HISTORIC CAMPAIGN TO BAN THE BURKA IN THE UK

https://www.change.org/p/british-so...-historic-campaign-to-ban-the-burka-in-the-uk

The ludicrous custom of female public anonymity is an imported Saudi-Afghan fad that has a suspicious provenance. This trendy cultural contraption has no authentic Islamic foundation. Facial-masking first originated for aristocratic and sexist reasons in ancient Persia and Byzantium long before the advent of Islam and is currently gaining traction as a result of Saudi petrodollars and Wahhabi sectarianism.
 
bellenuit said:
But that is simply not true as I have stated based on many articles I have read. They have to live within their strict Islamic society (within the broader Australian society) and not conforming to what the males of that society want is very difficult and dangerous for them. Look at the death threats made against the most vocal Muslim and ex-Muslim women who have spoken out against Islamic oppression, women who are in a sense partly protected by their notoriety and also by the freedom to escape their environment due to the financial independence coming with that notoriety and imagine what it is like for the poorly educated and financially dependent women stuck in their cultural ghettos to try and exhibit the same independence of dress. They need us to help them escape their chains not show tolerance for what is going on.

Look at the two different pictures of the Afghan women above. Due you think for a moment that they are happy with the current situation? Women in Islamic societies have gone backwards in the last 50 years due to the rise of Islamic extremism and fundamentalism. They are the victims. Just because they and the males have been transplanted to Australia doesn't mean that they are now free to do as they please.
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You have to give people time. No one could, or should, change their cultural and religious practices right away... Humans do most things by habits... so a male chauvinist or a religious person who's been brought up to believe they're this and their woman and children is that won't see anything wrong with being regressive (or not as progressive as we'd like).

So yes, it is oppressive to have a practice where women can and can't do this and that... but I think that as long as the oppressed women aren't complaining or being forced against her will, who are we to ban people's tradition to "break their chain for them"?

Normal people, men included, and Muslim men and husband also included, will adapt and slowly see the tradition and beliefs held up for them and their family or not. Some tradition they find useful and meaningful, others they will question and slowly abandon.

Of course you'll have Muslim husband and fathers who's just way too abusive, and they will use religion and culture as pretext etc.... But to group all Muslims as regressive and abusive is just wrong on both the understanding of facts and reality. Too much assumptions about Muslims and Islam.

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In terms of Islamic states and societies sliding backwards in the last 50 years... both economically and in regards to civil and gender rights... that's all obviously true. But your implication as to what causes it is all wrong.

You seem to suggests that there's something about the Arabs, or about Muslims or Islam that's just regressive and abusive and all things bad. That is just totally wrong.

Why were those Afghan women in the 50s so free? Or those in Egypt or Iran so free back in the 50s compare to now where they're forced to wear the Burqa and all that?

WW2 ended in 1945... many Middle East colonies of Britain and France etc. revolted against imperial powers... same as those in the Americas, Africa, SouthEast Asia, IndoChina... The new gov't were more or less more progressive, more than the imperial powers that used to control them that's for sure... So they institute women's rights, democratic values, higher education etc. etc.

Some countries managed to regain their independence, some gained it only after decades of war (VN, say), some were more or less done with less blood, and some are just too strategically important for the new Imperial power to let it happen - namely, those Middle Eastern countries.

The ME just have way too much oil, and countries like Egypt and its Suez Canal too important for trade and security, for any of these countries to do as the people wish. So when the PM of Iran want more royalties for his country's oil, more independence... he got replaced and the Shah was put into power. Then came the current lot of theocratic revolution against the Shah in the 1970s and their less than progressive policies.

The same colonial policies were put in place all over the ME.. giving what the Masters of War call an Arab fascade of rulers and tyrants and dictators - all Arab, all Islamic, all brutal. Guess who wield the big stick and pull all the strings? Ahem...

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So let say there's WW3 and the superpowers all slug it out and the nukes don't work so we all managed to not all die... then let say China or India, because they got too many people or something... they managed to "win" and China thought Australia is a nice place to own.

What do you think the new Imperial Chinese will do? All Australia to still be democratic? A federation? They'd probably divide Australia with India, draw up new borders, and pick a few White Aussies with big ambition and no tolerance to run the dam place the way God intended.

Anyway... people are people... we all have the same cry at birth.. some of us are luckier than others and grew up in time of peace and prosperity; others will see nothing but bloody and fire (I think I just stole that line from Mad Max)...
 
sptrawler said:
What about showing a video of ' 10 hours wearing a bikini, in a muslim country'.

You would be videoing in a prison, or a stoning would be taking place.lol You are funny.

What everyone gets out of shape about is, they can wear clothing that doesn't fit into our culture and country.

Yet they lay criminal charges, if you don't conform to their dress code, while in their country.

Who are the fools, us obviously, we are so busy trying to make our country replicate theirs.

We may find that we will be jumping on boats, to get away from their lifestyle, in the end.
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You sure you are a Liberal/Conservative? You seem to be championing the socialist freedom (e.g. Labor and Greens planks) aspect of our society e.g. dress codes, freedom of expression, more carrot less stick, .....

......the Campbell Newmans of this country stack the judiciary, make punitive laws, restrict protest, restrict freedom of association, restrict freedom of people's right to good press, do everything in secret, gag their party members , etc ..... that's the magnet for the people fleeing the M.E, they want to feel at home without someone trying to execute them.:rolleyes:

Can you imagine how confused they would be when they arrive to find a Labor Party in power and they are made to fill out tons of forms and made to do nothing in exchange for money and welfare? It must be horrendous to and industrious, work ethic culture like Arab Islam.
 
Value Collector said:
You that's because there have bee not lot of instances where people have committed violent crimes wearing helmets, is that happening with burkas?

Who are you talking about? A lot of Muslims are born here
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( translation, I'll blame the touchscreen keyboard )

yes, that's because there have been a lot of instances where people have committed violent crimes wearing helmets, is that happening with burkas?
 
Value Collector said:
( translation, I'll blame the touchscreen keyboard )

yes, that's because there have been a lot of instances where people have committed violent crimes wearing helmets, is that happening with burkas?
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Not yet, but maybe later if the Muslim population increases and they decide to show some muscle.

Better to nip these things in the bud now before there are more of them to argue with.
 
basically shows you can't reason with a person who wants to told onto their religious views

crazy religion (Small).jpg
 
SirRumpole said:
Not yet, but maybe later if the Muslim population increases and they decide to show some muscle.

Better to nip these things in the bud now before there are more of them to argue with.
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You do know the VLAD laws in QLD are majorly in part a result of the vicious Arab breeds infiltrating the bikie gangs?
 
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