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Religion IS crazy!

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pixel said:
So, let's stick to the topics of today and discuss how we can change people's attitudes to one another. How we can eliminate Stone-Age ideas from today's interpretation of religious beliefs and spread the notion of tolerance across society.
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I suppose you must have some plan in mind, but I haven't got a clue what it is. Could you please enlighten me on your notion of spreading tolerance across society by ignoring history and burying our heads in the sand. Is it based on Abbott's notion of "Team Australia"?
 
pixel said:
Thank you, luutzu;
for a very concise and unbiased digest of the history of science.
In the context of religion, it may be worth adding a few non-British influences.

When Britain was still asleep in the Dark Ages, Arab scholars were busily studying Greek philosophers, Indian numerals, Egyptian art; they saw no conflict between "Western" ideas and the Qur'an. Their bridgehead in parts of Spain became a melting pot and provided much of the impetus that centuries later sparked the European Renaissance. Even after their defeat in 732, Arab scholars and artisans were highly regarded in Central Europe and invited to teach medicine and other sciences.

In Italy (of all places!) a few thinkers began comparing their findings with Church Doctrine, which was found wanting. Free thinkers like Leonardo broke taboos and measured and dissected bodies, so they could understand how to draw correct portraits. Johann Gensfleisch (German for goose flesh; no wonder he changed his name to Gutenberg) built the first functioning reusable printing press, which, for the first time, made ideas more readily available to ordinary people. No longer were thoughts controlled by religious and state rulers. It took a few centuries to filter through, but in the 18th century, Friedrich Schiller could finally plead freedom of ideas "Sire, geben Sie Gedankenfreiheit."

Some of these geniuses worked within the confines of the Church; Gutenberg's first book was the Bible. But he would be well aware that the benefits of his device wouldn't stop there. Luther, Erasmus, Melanchthon, to name but a few, could have their ideas disseminated on "fliers", in defiance of Church Doctrine. Copernicus' description of planetary motions spread across Europe in print. Would Shakespeare's plays have had the impact they did without people being able to read them?
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Like a breath of fresh air.
 
Calliope said:
I suppose you must have some plan in mind, but I haven't got a clue what it is. Could you please enlighten me on your notion of spreading tolerance across society by ignoring history and burying our heads in the sand. Is it based on Abbott's notion of "Team Australia"?
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A good start might be to think that the other person might also be just as human as you are. They want the same thing in life as you do - want to work hard and enjoy life; want a family, want a future for their children; want to be able to pray to whoever they want to; want to not be labeled and prejudged based on your bigotry or experience with some idiots that looks a little like them... that might be a start.

Blanketing an entire race and religion as inherently evil is probably a bad start. It could be good if you're willing to listen and reason, but failing that...
 
Calliope said:
I suppose you must have some plan in mind, but I haven't got a clue what it is. Could you please enlighten me on your notion of spreading tolerance across society by ignoring history and burying our heads in the sand. Is it based on Abbott's notion of "Team Australia"?
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I'm an atheist with a lot of respect for religion...

Sure they're wrong, and sure they've done a lot of damage, and will do a lot of damage yet.

But humans got a tribal impulse. We can't deny it. We should fight it! Yes. But we can't pretend it doesn't exist. Religion represents a way to unify at least a little bit of humanity, to forget, sometimes, how much we hate each other.

From an evolutionary point of view, hatred of the different makes a ton of sense. Image you have a land with a bunch of tribes. They all have stories. But imagine there's a mutation, a change in our uniquely complex social structure, that give the carrier of this particular mutation a violent hatred for anyone who believes differently. Anyone who has DIFFERENT stories.

It doesn't matter the belief. There's no way for genetics to prescribe a particular belief. But imagine there's the propensity in a human to mistrust, hate, even violently respond to, another human with different stories. Whatever those stories are.

All the peaceful tribes do nothing. This one hateful tribe goes out in the dark, and kills their neighbours in their sleep, because those neighbours don't believe in X. Takes their land. Probably their women.

Whose genes win?

Any humans who do not attack, eventually die. Because attack, in humans terms, and over generations, always wins.

So here we are! We are a species who naturally hates the different. Who bands around the unifying core, not really caring what that core is. It's irrational, but it makes us feel comradeship for our tribe, and hatred for the other.

The ancient Humans who didn't do that, are dead.

And of course we came up with gods. It only takes one smartarse to say "I know what it's all about!" for others to follow along. Shout that same today - "I know what's going on!" - and you'll get followers. A lot of humans - maybe a minority of the readers from this forum, but still, a lot of humans from each generation - will believe what they are told.

But for ancient humans looking for a reason to kill the others, religion was a massive multiplier. Not just different in songs and stories. Different in GOD. In a thing you can't argue with. It's the ultimate rally cry..

Roast me a delicious goat! And also, kill the unbeliever! And the god you only believe because I tell you it's true, will reward you in some untestable way.

And when a parent teaches a child what is real, a child believes. If a parent teaches that Belforal The Mighty makes the summer come, a child MUST believe that. Have some kids. Teach them whatever they like. With the exception of some well-tested persuasive tropes, they'll believe it.

Until they hit science, which is based on the maxim: don't take anyone's word for it. That's dangerous, and of course old structures resent it.

A religion only needs to get a little over the average to take over. Enough parents who join in a moment of misery, or out of expedience, or out of a vague loyalty to the beliefs of their parents. Mostly, they join when they are kids and don't know any better.

If you never mentioned god until people were 21, religion would die.

BUT ANYWAY.

So there we were, generation after generation. Killing each other, killing the peacemakers, and rewarding the violent muppets...

...and it's not long we've gotten out of that. And it'll take a lot of generations to breed violence out of ourselves. It's going to be hard, and there's an excellent chance we'll wipe ourselves out before we manage it. But right now we have to accept: there's a strong trait in humanity, that believes anything, and hates anyone who believes otherwise.

Take a look a politics, and you can smell that trait like a fish on a footpath. Parties have swapped policies, and the followers have transferred their hate to the new tribe without hesitation.

Organised religion is, as those who have used it in the past have clearly noticed, a tool. Plenty of us are violent hateful idiots. We all are, at least a little bit. But at least a little of that stupidity can be mitigated if we accept a decent religion, and use it, as a way of allowing people to accept each other. To make a religion that brings all humans into the tribe.


We're irrational. Sometimes the irrational can bring out the best is us.
 
Weatsop said:
I'm an atheist with a lot of respect for religion...
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Religious myth, legends and the fantastic claims therein deserve no respect and should be accorded none by anyone claiming to be an atheist. One's basic human rights and dignity should be respected, not their belief in imaginary sky Gods, demons, spirits, edicts etc. and all the supernatural claims used to justify such belief.

Organised religion is, as those who have used it in the past have clearly noticed, a tool
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Indeed, a tool to manipulate, control, deceive and subjugate the minds of gullible believers and give them a false confidence, hope and surety about eternity.

Plenty of us are violent hateful idiots. We all are, at least a little bit.
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Speak for yourself and not on behalf of anyone else with such generalization.

But at least a little of that stupidity can be mitigated if we accept a decent religion, and use it, as a way of allowing people to accept each other. To make a religion that brings all humans into the tribe.
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As an atheist, I have no desire to become part of any religious tribe. If there is such a thing as a "decent" religion how would you define it and to what end? Engaging or promoting any religion as a useful tool for controlling human behaviour is a slippery slope that leads to religious fascism, theocracy and domination.

We're irrational. Sometimes the irrational can bring out the best is us.
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Really? So irrational religious beliefs should be encouraged to bring out the best in people? I suggest that being rational about human wellbeing and caring about the welfare of others makes more sense than needing or claiming a heavenly reward or motivation for doing so.
 
Knobby22 said:
When the Aids epidemic broke, Mother Theresa left India with heaps of nuns to set up a hospital in the US to care for the dying because no one else wanted to.
So sorry, as with Weatsop I have respect for religion too and find some of the intolerance shown in this thread distasteful.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/blog-oltre-tevere-by-giacomo-galeazzi/detail/articolo/10445/
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Half a million odd women were raped in during the India-Pakistan war. She was adamant that even under those circumstances abortion was never right. It's a shame her compassion didn't extend beyond her religious dogma.:2twocents
 
FxTrader said:
Religious myth, legends and the fantastic claims therein deserve no respect and should be accorded none by anyone claiming to be an atheist. One's basic human rights and dignity should be respected, not their belief in imaginary sky Gods, demons, spirits, edicts etc. and all the supernatural claims used to justify such belief.


Indeed, a tool to manipulate, control, deceive and subjugate the minds of gullible believers and give them a false confidence, hope and surety about eternity.


Speak for yourself and not on behalf of anyone else with such generalization.


As an atheist, I have no desire to become part of any religious tribe. If there is such a thing as a "decent" religion how would you define it and to what end? Engaging or promoting any religion as a useful tool for controlling human behaviour is a slippery slope that leads to religious fascism, theocracy and domination.


Really? So irrational religious beliefs should be encouraged to bring out the best in people? I suggest that being rational about human wellbeing and caring about the welfare of others makes more sense than needing or claiming a heavenly reward or motivation for doing so.
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An excellent summation of commonsense, FxTrader:xyxthumbs
 
Man, you can tell I was drunk when I wrote that!

Look, here's what I was clumsily trying to say: religion is for idiots, but there are a LOT of idiots.

My neighbour, for example. To her, science is just the big scary thing that tells her what to do, that she doesn't have a hope of understanding. She resents science - it seems arbitrary to her (thanks, media!). She hears about global warming, or the thing that'll give her cancer, or whatever, and she has no idea where that information comes from, no idea what scientists actually do, no idea how reliable this information is.

Her jaw dropped when told her that the moon comes out in the day - I actually pointed to the moon. She'd never noticed. When I asked her where she thought it went on moonless nights... it was obvious she hadn't thought anything about it. She's never read past the first two sentences of a newspaper article in her life. She thinks global warming is from all the powerplants and car engines being hot. She's still worried about the ozone layer, on account of the "ultra-valides maybe still coming down".

She's not part of science, she has no ownership. It's this thing that pushes her around, and she's helpless to do anything about it. The world is this completely unknowable place.

And once a week she goes to a building where a nice old man tells everyone to be decent to each other, and that the big sky fairy loves her. And the world makes sense to her.

Take that away, and she's just adrift. She'd feel helpless - fact is, she IS helpless. She's an idiot. But she's got a right to feel safe, and part of something - surely? What do we gain by taking that away?

---
My brother is a smart feller - straight-A student as a kid, the smartest person I've ever met - but he's gone born-again. He spent a couple of decades in a self-destructive alcoholic funk because he sees all the awful evil crap that happens in the world, and he just can't take it. (Despite the indignation above, the evidence would suggest that humans are pretty bloody awful, and some proportion close to ALL of us can be pretty damn evil under the right circumstances).

Then he finds religion. At some level he probably knows it's a cop-out, but he genuinely needs to believe in god, now. It's all that keeps him sane. I'm genuinely surprised he's still alive - but in the past few years, he's actually been happy. Religion did that.

I was talking about my old job, about the plans we made for pandemics, and about the worst-case ones (basically, there's a level beyond which we just can't make meaningful plans - we just have a menu of resources and options, and that's all we can do). And I enjoy thinking this through, it's a challenge. But he just has to hide - he can't deal with the thought of all the people he knows dying. So he says "God wouldn't let that happen".

It's a terrible thing to say if you're involved in pandemic planning, but he works in a factory. Why should he be scared? What would that gain us? How does it hurt us for him to have that comfort, however false it is?

As much as I'd like everyone to be able to look at reality, the simple fact is that a lot CAN'T. I'd say most of us have our delusions - as invisible to ourselves as other people's idiotic beliefs are invisible to them.

God is so obviously something people made up, that I can't understand how anyone who actually believes in a god manages to function day-to-day. Why don't they walk into trees? How could you be so stupid and still remember to breathe?

But plenty of people can't take reality. They can't. Wishing they could won't change it. With nothing but reality, plenty of people would just break.

...I, for one, try hard not to think about the Fermi Paradox. Not quite delusional, but still avoidance of reality...

When my dad was dying, my non-religious family just pretended he wasn't. He was on his death bed and they were planning a camping trip. He couldn't even talk. Dunno what he thought of the plans. They'd visit him a few hours each day, and leave him alone the rest of the time - even knowing he had a fear of dying alone. They couldn't accept reality. Just couldn't do it.

So what I'm saying is, humans seem to need delusions. I might think I don't have any, but then religious people think that, too. Thinking you're not deluded doesn't seem a very effective measure of whether or not you're deluded! Religion can do a lot of good. It's very flawed, but so are humans.

And having a nice old man, each week, tell people to be decent to each other... Well, that seems like something worthwhile.

So instead of just hating religion, I prefer to hate the bad parts.
 
That's a pretty good dissertation Weatsop except for the following

Weatsop said:
God is so obviously something people made up, that I can't understand how anyone who actually believes in a god manages to function day-to-day. Why don't they walk into trees? How could you be so stupid and still remember to breathe?
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Well, I believe in God and I'm still breathing, and I don't walk into trees.

I go with the old quote by Gallileo

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."



It depends on how you want to believe in God. If you take the religious route then you are an intellectual slave. If you just prefer to say thanks for letting us be here and use your brains to control your own life, then I see no problem with that.
 
McLovin said:
Half a million odd women were raped in during the India-Pakistan war. She was adamant that even under those circumstances abortion was never right. It's a shame her compassion didn't extend beyond her religious dogma.:2twocents
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I thought the Aids hospital when no one would go near the patients except the nuns was a good thing, but of course it doesn't count because she had anti abortion beliefs.

Half a million! That is terrible. Gee McLovin, you must have contributed to a non religious charity that set up abortion clinics in India?
What there wasn't any? But surely it was necessary!!

She had no part in the rape of half a million women but it sounds real bad doesn't it when you say it that way. This is an example of what I mean. She didn't stop these Hindu women having abortions. She wasn't running the country and was only a member of a religion with a very tiny minority. Yet somehow it makes it look like it's her fault no one did anything.

You can always criticise anyone for their views if you try especially if you do a search on the Web to gather evidence as there are people with a deep hatred of religion who will willingly supply the information.

Live and let live is my philosophy. The fact that her religion is anti abortion does not stop the actual good she did.
Actions are louder than words.

The grey sisters (also known as the family care sisters) are nuns that operated in the housing commission flats near where I was growing up. The good they did was amazing however I am sure you can find some criticism of them on the web.
 
The perfect example of the wolves suppressing freedom, you must be part of the Communist party, McLovin.

Good on you, Knobby, and thanks :) :xyxthumbs
 
Tink said:
The perfect example of the wolves suppressing freedom, you must be part of the Communist party, McLovin.
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Please tell me how you reached that conclusion, Tink. And no running away or deflecting with "Knobby already said it perfectly" as you usually do when asked to justify a statement. You tell me, specifically, what part of my post was advocating "suppressing freedom".

I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer.:rolleyes:
 
You are the first to say that people should be allowed to speak their mind, and now you are saying she can't?

Yes, Knobby did say it exactly as stated.
 
I thought you were for freedom of speech.

OK, so you want a Communist country where we are not allowed to express our views.
 
Tink said:
I thought you were for freedom of speech.

OK, so you want a Communist country where we are not allowed to express our views.
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Wow. Are you just trolling now or are you really that poor at reading and comprehension? Talk about putting words in someone's mouth.
 
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