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Religion IS crazy!

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SirRumpole said:
Excuse me VC, it was you who said "religion is evil", not me.

How can something evil have any "good parts" ?
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I said many of the foundational beliefs of religion are evil.

and then I gave the definition of evil.

profoundly immoral and wicked
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I still stick by that statement, But to say every religious concept is evil, would be untrue, or to say all religious groups are evil is also untrue.
 
or to say all religious groups are evil is also untrue.
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Agreed, but you have to have some strategy for sorting out the good groups from the evil ones, and when it comes to terrorism, you can't go on trust alone.
 
Value Collector said:
I understand now that you don't eat meat, but if animal rights is the issue, then eating egg products should be avoided also.
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Why? If one uses free range eggs?
And now I suppose there will be a further lecture about not being able to trust criteria for free range etc.
 
SirRumpole said:
Agreed, but you have to have some strategy for sorting out the good groups from the evil ones, and when it comes to terrorism, you can't go on trust alone.
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and flinging mud at all Muslim organisations is not a good strategy, and its not up to us, we have intelligence agencies to deal with that, Until they say different or unless you have some other evidence which you should pass along to them.

just like its not your job to search bags at the airport, you can't walk around the airport making public accusations that all the muslims may be terrorists. you just have to trust that the authorities have done their job.
 
Julia said:
Why? If one uses free range eggs?
And now I suppose there will be a further lecture about not being able to trust criteria for free range etc.
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Because the free range laying hens still end up at the slaughter house, just like the broiler hens.

and the diary cows (and their male calves) end up in the slaughter house just like the meat cattle.

Just because we have a temporary use for animals generating by products, doesn't mean they are spared the slaughter house.
 
Value Collector said:
just like its not your job to search bags at the airport, you can't walk around the airport making public accusations that ALL the muslims may be terrorists. (my caps and bolds)
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There you go again, misrepresentation at its worst, I don't know how many times I have to pick you up on this.

SOME Islamic groups/individuals MAY BE terrorists. How do you determine who is ? You carry out investigations on SUSPECTS to see if there is any evidence. Who do you suspect ? Groups that transfer money overseas perhaps.

You trace the money and see where it goes. If it goes to genuine recipients fine, no action is taken and no one needs to know there has been an investigation. If it goes to dodgy groups you investigate further. That's what the intelligence agencies should do, and all I'm saying is I hope they are doing it.
 
SirRumpole said:
There you go again, misrepresentation at its worst, I don't know how many times I have to pick you up on this.

SOME Islamic groups/individuals MAY BE terrorists. How do you determine who is ? You carry out investigations on SUSPECTS to see if there is any evidence. Who do you suspect ? Groups that transfer money overseas perhaps.

You trace the money and see where it goes. If it goes to genuine recipients fine, no action is taken and no one needs to know there has been an investigation. If it goes to dodgy groups you investigate further. That's what the intelligence agencies should do, and all I'm saying is I hope they are doing it.
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It's not up to me or you. I think that is the issue here. I am not saying the authorities can't or shouldn't investigate whom ever they have reasonable suspicions off wrong doing. None of my comments have been in relation to proper intelligence work done by the authorities.

My comments have all been directly at you, making assumptions that the halal group may be a terrorist organisation, For some reason you didn't like the idea of products getting halal certification, and you used the excuse that they may be using the funds generated for terrorism. I am simply saying that for you to say such a thing about a group you know nothing about is wrong.
 
My comments have all been directly at you, making assumptions that the halal group may be a terrorist organisation,
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I wasn't actually thinking of the "halal" group. The O.P. on this subject mentioned the Islamic Council of Australia that gives the certification, which I believe covers a wide spectrum of the Islamic community. It's not unreasonable to believe that some groups within this extended organisation maybe supporting terrorism. For PC reasons are you suggesting that this possibility be ignored ?
 
SirRumpole said:
. For PC reasons are you suggesting that this possibility be ignored ?
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No, I believe the authorities can investigate until their hearts are content. But the average punter such as you and I should not make unfounded accusations or treat other citizens with contempt, at least until they have been shown to be doing the wrong thing.
 
Value Collector said:
No, I believe the authorities can investigate until their hearts are content. But the average punter such as you and I should not make unfounded accusations or treat other citizens with contempt, at least until they have been shown to be doing the wrong thing.
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Pardon me for expressing my views as a citizen in a free country. If you want to have a go at someone I suggest there are others in this thread and other threads expressing a much more bigoted view than myself who you have chosen to ignore, but that's cherry picking for you I suppose.
 
Value Collector said:
Because the free range laying hens still end up at the slaughter house, just like the broiler hens.

and the diary cows (and their male calves) end up in the slaughter house just like the meat cattle.

Just because we have a temporary use for animals generating by products, doesn't mean they are spared the slaughter house.
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Well, obviously they do. But it's a different story killing a creature as fragile as a chicken compared with cattle which we know have been in many instances brutally and unnecessarily cruelly treated prior to their killing.

The best we can do in thanks for the sacrifice animals make for us is treat them with respect while they are still alive.

Value Collector said:
My comments have all been directly at you, making assumptions that the halal group may be a terrorist organisation,
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I didn't interpret anything Rumpole said as that at all. You seem determined to argue for the sake of it.

If he, or anyone else declines to feel enthusiastic about consuming anything categorised as halal, for whatever reason, that's their choice and their business.

One day you describe everything to do with all religion as one of the great scourges of life, and the next you're doggedly defending it.
Might be best to just leave you to it. I notice some other previous participants in the discussion have dropped out also.
 
Julia said:
Well, obviously they do. But it's a different story killing a creature as fragile as a chicken compared with cattle which we know have been in many instances brutally and unnecessarily cruelly treated prior to their killing.
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Yes, But the halal rules are about avoiding that cruelty, and would I be wrong in suggesting you consume dairy products? If so your animal product consumption leads to cows and bobby calves being processed, not just chickens.

The best we can do in thanks for the sacrifice animals make for us is treat them with respect while they are still alive.
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I agree.

I didn't interpret anything Rumpole said as that at all. You seem determined to argue for the sake of it.
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What did you think he meant when he said this?

Regardless of the benefits or otherwise of Halal food, if you have to pay the Islamic Council for certification, in today's circumstances do you know where that money is going to ?

PERHAPS some money is going to terrorism. Who handles the money, what are their links with terrorists ? These things should be investigated.
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If he, or anyone else declines to feel enthusiastic about consuming anything categorised as halal, for whatever reason, that's their choice and their business.
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Yes offcourse, but they should at least understand what the thing actually is before condemning it, especially if the condemnation is being asserted publically.

One day you describe everything to do with all religion as one of the great scourges of life, and the next you're doggedly defending it.
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Have I ever said everything religion has done is bad? No.

I think you will find my stance has always been that there are positive benefits, However I don't believe any of them belong solely to religion and all can be achieved in other ways, and none outweigh the bad side effects.

Do you think I would protest a catholic organisation funding the construction of a hospital? Offcourse I wouldn't, unless they were doing some other crazy stuff like faith healing etc.

I have said many times, there is a lot to attack Islam about, but being offended over a halal certification is not one of them.

I think I am one of the most consistent posters here, I always tried to point out when criticism was unjustified or based on bigotry, racism or xenophobia rather than facts.
 
Value Collector said:
yes, I know, I have seen the process also, and I have heard stories of the stun gun not rendering the animal unconscious.
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OK.
When you mentioned 'cows that aren't killed by the stun gun puncturing their skull', I assumed that you were unaware of how a stun gun functions, which is not to puncture the animals skull, but to simply hit them a stunning blow usually to the back of the head that leaves them unconscious.
 
Can't remember if I've posted this one already...

Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT


Saudi [religious] police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

Is religion crazy?

YES.....
 
bunyip said:
OK.
When you mentioned 'cows that aren't killed by the stun gun puncturing their skull', I assumed that you were unaware of how a stun gun functions, which is not to puncture the animals skull, but to simply hit them a stunning blow usually to the back of the head that leaves them unconscious.
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The captive bolt pistols (stun guns) are of three types: penetrating, non-penetrating, and free bolt.

You are correct, most used today are the non penetrating type, but these types are also less effective, which may result in the animal not being rendered unconscious. I don't work in the industry and have only had very limited exposure, but I have family involved in the industry so have discussed the pros and cons of the various methods as it is an interesting topic.
 
SirRumpole said:
Do you think it's bigoted to assume that they all condone terrorism ?
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I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, it's probably best to ask them why they are protesting.

I have no idea, I haven't taken any notice of it, they may think the people are innocent, and that's why they are protesting, who knows.

You seem to know more about it than me, why do you think they are protesting?
 
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