Religion IS crazy!

[artist]

They don't want to hear about chromosomes in the Bible long before people even knew what they were.

Tink, a sincere question if I may. I was not able to understand the link between Genesis text and human chromosomes that cynic proposed. Would you please explain it to me clearly and concisely in your own words? I would really like to understand.

 

[Value Collector]

Sorry, I have to disagree.

If you take atheism to an extreme, it turns into a hatred of religion (which we have seen here in this forum in varying degrees) . In the mind of a homicidal lunatic that could turn into violence against religious people or the institutions of religion. Don't you think that China's persecution of the Falun Gong (which as far as I know has no violence inherent in it's doctrine) falls into that category ? As was China's cultural revolution which was a similar attack against religion amongst other things. You seem anxious to ignore these examples of religious persecution while throwing verbal grenades against religion.

Believe me, I think that some religious people do some nasty things, but to ignore the fact that religious people are also persecuted in the name of atheism is to ignore evidence contrary to your opinion, and given your obsession with evidence I certainly hope you won't do that.

The real threat to society is extremism of any sort. I hope you don't think that the millions of your countrymen who go to church every Sunday and go peacefully about their daily lives are going to let themselves be turned into murderers just because a preacher says so ? To do so would be to do good people a great disservice.

Sorry rumple, your confusing anti theism, with atheism again.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god, thats it. Anything else is something else.

If you move to a hatred of religion, thats not atheism, A hatred of religion doesn't come from a simple lack of belief in a god, there must be other factors driving it.

 

[Value Collector]

They don't want to hear about chromosomes in the Bible long before people even knew what they were.

The bible doesn't talk about chromosomes , what you are doing here is simply talking a bible verse that doesn't talk about chromosomes and twisting the interpretation to try and make it sound like it is describing chromosomes.

If you want some great examples of this, google "scientific evidence in qu'ran, the Muslims love doing this stuff, they claim 100's of Quran verses describe scientific knowledge, but I have gone through many of them with a Muslim guy who was sending them to me, and none of them are actually saying what the think they say.

 

[Value Collector]

Tink, a sincere question if I may. I was not able to understand the link between Genesis text and human chromosomes that cynic proposed. Would you please explain it to me clearly and concisely in your own words? I would really like to understand.

Yes, I would be interested in Tink, posting the exact verse, and then writing a brief description of why she thinks it describes chromosomes,

 

[Value Collector]

 

[SirRumpole]

If you move to a hatred of religion, thats not atheism, A hatred of religion doesn't come from a simple lack of belief in a god, there must be other factors driving it.

Well maybe we can say that anti theism is atheism taken to extremes, like anti semitism is Catholicism taken to extremes.

 

[luutzu]

View attachment 58751

I don't get the Hippie picture. Is he drinking red wine?

 

[luutzu]

Imagine...

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't get the Hippie picture. Is he drinking red wine?

You mean he's a winer ?

 

[bellenuit]

Well maybe we can say that anti theism is atheism taken to extremes, like anti semitism is Catholicism taken to extremes.

Atheism taken to the extreme! You mean as in I really really really don't believe in a god?

Religion taken to the extreme, using both Christianity and Islam as an example, is often just a matter of which parts of their holy book they wish to follow. There are parts in both The Bible and Quron that will support almost every position from the most moderate to the most extreme fundamentalism.

We tend to associate the word extreme in the religious context in relation to those who resort to violence, but in a sense they are just adhering to the texts that they particularly favour.

There is nothing in the statement "I do not believe in a god based on the evidence presented" to be extreme about.

 

[Value Collector]

I don't get the Hippie picture. Is he drinking red wine?

I don't think its a hippy, I think its just a dude drinking a beer

 

[Value Collector]

Well maybe we can say that anti theism is atheism taken to extremes, like anti semitism is Catholicism taken to extremes.

No it's actually two separate things, hating religion is different to not believing in a god, atheism is just the default position, where all born atheist until someone convinces us to believe in a god, anti theism is not a default position, it requires a lot of other stuff, especially to get to the extremes

 

[SirRumpole]

No it's actually two separate things, hating religion is different to not believing in a god, atheism is just the default position, where all born atheist until someone convinces us to believe in a god, anti theism is not a default position, it requires a lot of other stuff, especially to get to the extremes

OK, so perhaps you will concede then that Hitlers attitude towards Jews was motivated by more 'stuff' than just religion?

Anti Semitism is not a default position of Christianity.

 

[bellenuit]

We tend to associate the word extreme in the religious context in relation to those who resort to violence, but in a sense they are just adhering to the texts that they particularly favour.

There is nothing in the statement "I do not believe in a god based on the evidence presented" to be extreme about.

And I also think this is a fundamental difference between those of us who post topics relevant to the theme of this thread and those who retort with "it's just a small minority that do such things, the rest are OK".

We agree, in general, with that retort. But they miss the point. We are not writing about crazy and abhorrent things done by people who just happen to practice some religion or other, we are writing about such things done IN THE NAME of religion. They can find passages in their dogma to support such actions and are often doing such actions because they believe that those passages are the true words of their creator.

 

[SirRumpole]

We agree, in general, with that retort. But they miss the point. We are not writing about crazy and abhorrent things done by people who just happen to practice some religion or other, we are writing about such things done IN THE NAME of religion. They can find passages in their dogma to support such actions and are often doing such actions because they believe that those passages are the true words of their creator.

That's obviously true, but there are a lot more people that find positives in religion, and anyway, 'religion' is a broad brush.

Islam - has problems. Some very violent stuff in there especially instructions as to what to do with 'apostates'.

Old Testament - some violent stuff in there too, but it's usually God that takes revenge, he doesn't instruct his followers to do his dirty work. But the old Testament is mainly for Jews, and there is always the First Commandment.

New Testament - for Christians. Not too many problems there, I don't believe Jesus went around telling his followers to kill. "Turn the other cheek" didn't he say ?

Buddhism - ever met a violent Buddhist ? They don't usually knock on our doors on Sunday mornings either.

Hindus - can't recall them causing too much trouble.

So don't knock religion in toto, there is good and bad.

And let's face it, if some radical follower of Richard Dawkins wants to put all religious people in mental asylums, is that Dawkins fault or the radical's ?

 

[Julia]

I realise that the "no respect" story fits in with your world view that society is falling apart because we don't worship your sky god, but you are wrong.

+1.
How any devotee of religion can claim, after the hideous abuses perpetrated then covered up by the Catholic and other churches, that any downgrading of standards is due to lack of religious influence, is totally beyond me.
The lack of insight and sheer mindlessness is breathtaking.

I'd also second artist's interest in Tink's explanation of cynic's posts.

 

[cynic]

Tink, a sincere question if I may. I was not able to understand the link between Genesis text and human chromosomes that cynic proposed. Would you please explain it to me clearly and concisely in your own words? I would really like to understand.

The bible doesn't talk about chromosomes , what you are doing here is simply talking a bible verse that doesn't talk about chromosomes and twisting the interpretation to try and make it sound like it is describing chromosomes.

If you want some great examples of this, google "scientific evidence in qu'ran, the Muslims love doing this stuff, they claim 100's of Quran verses describe scientific knowledge, but I have gone through many of them with a Muslim guy who was sending them to me, and none of them are actually saying what the think they say.

+1.
How any devotee of religion can claim, after the hideous abuses perpetrated then covered up by the Catholic and other churches, that any downgrading of standards is due to lack of religious influence, is totally beyond me.
The lack of insight and sheer mindlessness is breathtaking.

I'd also second artist's interest in Tink's explanation of cynic's posts.

What aspect/s of my discourse on this matter was/were so unclear that it/they require revisitation?

 

[Value Collector]

OK, so perhaps you will concede then that Hitlers attitude towards Jews was motivated by more 'stuff' than just religion?

Anti Semitism is not a default position of Christianity.

I already said that, economic scape goating, bloods myths and racism along with the catholic antisemitism all played a role.

Atheism did not.

Remember i didn't bring up hitler, I was referring to pav who was trying to judge he holacaust against atheists.

 

[Value Collector]

That's obviously true, but there are a lot more people that find positives in religion, and anyway, 'religion' is a broad brush.

Islam - has problems. Some very violent stuff in there especially instructions as to what to do with 'apostates'.

Old Testament - some violent stuff in there too, but it's usually God that takes revenge, he doesn't instruct his followers to do his dirty work. But the old Testament is mainly for Jews, and there is always the First Commandment.

New Testament - for Christians. Not too many problems there, I don't believe Jesus went around telling his followers to kill. "Turn the other cheek" didn't he say ?

Buddhism - ever met a violent Buddhist ? They don't usually knock on our doors on Sunday mornings either.

Hindus - can't recall them causing too much trouble.

So don't knock religion in toto, there is good and bad.

And let's face it, if some radical follower of Richard Dawkins wants to put all religious people in mental asylums, is that Dawkins fault or the radical's ?

Yes pav finds positives in religion, however it also causes him to support the discrimination against the members of our society who are gay.

The point I like to make is that I don't think there is a single positive thing accomplished by religion that can't be achieved in other less dangerous ways.

Eg. We all agree that religion has some very bad side effects, but can anyone think of any good things it does that can't be done in other ways? If not, then just like a pill that has bad side effects, you should avoid it in favor of other things

 

[Value Collector]

And yes rumpole, all those religions you mentioned have nasty side effects, you should research the bad bits rather than just assume they are all Rosie,

Yes there are violent Buddhists, and Hindus that burn people alive. And Jesus said that no laws in the Old Testament will change so you can still follow Jesus and fall back onto those nasty rules, and yes jesus supported slavery