Pushing Share Prices Down

[tech/a]

When you log in a bid to sell or buy with an ONLINE broker once you hit Submit then all is recorded.So your "U" bidders have an electronic trail.

Now ASIC havent and wont take any action as there isnt ANY market manipulation-----------simply it doesnt work----------if it did they would take action---------Just ask Rivkin if they are toothless.

Secondly Full service brokers--------unless you want "Tosser" tattooed in your forehead from your broker that I wouldnt think youd even ask!

The myth is firmly in place.

There is no market manipulation by using "U" bids.
ASIC concurs.

 

[stefan]

tech,

This will go nowhere. you believe it doesn't exist, I believe it does. Whether it is a myth or not is impossible to proof. I can't ask Rivkin about ASIC but I can keep an eye on what's happening and you would have to be blind or willing to turn a blind eye on things if you happily believe that the market is paradise with ASIC on constant watch, catching whoever is doing something wrong.

ASIC have their glorious moments every so often. But they nevertheless aren't able to follow it all. It's of no use to have a record of a U bid somewhere. There are hundreds of them. It's perfectly legal to enter a U bid and to change it as many times as you like. Proofing that its purpose is to manipulate the market would be rather tricky.

Let's face it, the stockmarket is far from perfect. ASIC is no more than a traffic patrol. They will catch the odd offender but they can never watch them all.

Happy trading

Stefan

 

[Mofra]

Its not just Undisclosed orders (U boats) that manipulate price.

Countless market openings (predominantly on small caps) you will see dummy bidders place large orders that push the open price up a tick or two, only to see it disappear just prior to market open. It seems to be a fairly common practice but on a daily basis you can see bids moved up trying to jump the queue - people get caught every day.

Of course, the longer your term the less important intra day moves become

Cheers

 

[tech/a]

So dies the placement of an undisclosed bid in a buy or sell que influence you or any one else in your trading?

Particularly when the non genuine bids disappear as you say from the line up once hit.

Simply my arguement is that they have no influence.
As such they dont manipulate the market--------thats your view that they do.

Anyway Im fine with you think they are successful and I dont.

 

[stefan]

tech,

the bid itself does not have that much of an influence. But countless examples have shown that once they appear, the market shows a reaction. I'm not saying it will initiate a 50% run, but it does increase the bid size considerably. You've mentioned it in your other thread: Too many people try to find the bottom. Now because there are so many out there, once a U bid appears, traders looking for that bottom do get the impression that the volume is strong and they will finally buy. (We both agree that this is a rather stupid behaviour, but since 97% of traders aren't successful, I'm not surprised it happens. It's the classic "go with the crowd" thing.)

Happy trading

Stefan

 

[Mofra]

tech,

Try logging onto the commsec chatsite and wait until a u-boat appears on a smaller cap share. By the paniced discussion I would say it certainly has some effect - an experienced trader with a MT or LT entry bid would ignore it, but there is quite a bit of inexperience trying to make fortunes in smaller companies.

 

[markrmau]

Just my interpretation, but when the pro's really want to ditch stock, they continually put on parcels of stock on the market, and not do a /u. I have seen this with AGL after the AGM, and yesterday/today with WBC. The parcels were generally 10,000 sized, for share prices of about $13 and $18.5 respectively (which would have qualified for /u).

 

[still_in_school]

Hi Guys,

in a way, also trading, is like playing Chess with the market...

anyone want to Check Mate?

Cheers,
sis

 

[tosegue]

Personally I have found the best way to force a share price down is for me to buy some.

 

[aus_trader]

Personally I have found the best way to force a share price down is for me to buy some.

Hey tosegue, it's interesting you found this very old thread and decided to revive it.

Don't beat yourself up, it's a tough game. I've been doing it for a long time and still most positions go against me as soon as I buy especially on the speculative end of the market which can be seen in the thread Speculative Stock Portfolio. Most trades end up as losses but some of the few that win do go for a good run. Recently couple of ASF members help me run the numbers on that portfolio and so far it has a small +ve edge i.e. it has made me some money even after all the brokerage costs are deducted. Which is better than most of the speculative stock picking newsletters and small cap investing subscription services. I have tried a lot of them and overall most of them have a -ve edge if you put money into every single stock they recommend.

 

[tosegue]

Sorry I read a lot of the old stuff and forget where I am and coment,

 

[kahuna1]

On occasions ASIC acts.

Suggesting they are without teeth is like suggesting Rivkin is honest.
Over the years a few have gone to court, many have been fined and MOST get away with it.
A few famous cases, one involving a group in a small company, the CEO and his kids and a broker actually did go all the way. GTG ,,


Most... say like LUM where a person on Hot copper had 7 nics and was spreading rumors ... sitting next to the MD and other secret deals ... they caught that idiot with help ... REPORT IT ... but ignored the pump and dump via inside selling of a worthless company and a substantial holder dumping their shares whilst the company was being run like the Russian Mafia and inside reports of great deals which were FAKE ... no deals existed or ever hit their accounts, the real crooks ASIC did nothing even when reported.

This stuff goes on.
Top dressing and reports from companies that are absurd.
LIES ...
If they lie ... and it costs you ... take them to court as was the case with a whole lot of people in many many cases over the years. One case took about 10 years but the investors got all their money back from one of those Timber companies when the management lied. Doing this, they opened the floodgate to the company directors assets via breaches of duties of directors.

All this aside .... report it to ASIC if its clearly being played with. They DO and WILL take action.

Brokers get fined and massively so if someone takes the TIME to report it.
Note the date and time and size of the bids and report it.

That said, volume and fake bids and so on ... IGNORE IT .... well I know most follow tech stuff alone and sadly I know exactly how to get sheep to buy what comes out my behind and pay top dollar for it. First I make the market look bid, then buy it through a chart point and keep buying whilst also having sell orders up above, when the teams of chart devoted come and buy, I offload all my purchases and my original long into their buying. NOTHING illegal with making people who are willing to buy my worthless ejecta for a lot of mo0mney in this case. I put in bids, I was not faking anything. I purchased the shares, I took the risk, hoping the legions of people who buy things without knowing what the hell they are worth ... would like the sheep follow.

They do .... and did.
Repeat over and over again with new sheep.
In the case of say LUM above, many years ago ... whilst crooks and Russian Mafia style pump and dump with inside involvement they marched a share, worthless ... up from 12 cents to over $1... oh and its worthless now ... with insanely bullish announcements of deals that never hit accounts, media reports even media figures doing stories on a product which ... well ... was a sham ... and in the process pocketed about 80 million.

ASIC was infomred and did little other than the HC poster.

I strongly as always suggest serious fundamental analysis .... of a stock ... its value and merits.

If your silly enough to pay $1- for something worth 1 cent ... and the person actually goes are you sure you want to do that ? Which is the case with any order entered ... sadly its your call.

Not much is said about merits of larger stocks and say CSL which is a 50 bagger has virtually no followers on chat sites. ITs like speaking to yourself. Or say MFG 45 fold gain in 10 years. Much the same for most decent long term stocks.

Such is life, but bidding and manipulating stocks and dressing them up for month end, quarter end is normal and impossible to escape. Most penny dreadfuls ... irrelevant .... and no real funds dressing
up the share price of stock which they don't hold. Sure some smaller funds hold mid and small caps, but they DO place real bids and offers ... so u can get in or out if they are annoying you.

Have fun

 

[frugal.rock]

Hey tosegue, it's interesting you found this very old thread and decided to revive it.

Don't beat yourself up, it's a tough game. I've been doing it for a long time and still most positions go against me as soon as I buy especially on the speculative end of the market which can be seen in the thread Speculative Stock Portfolio. Most trades end up as losses but some of the few that win do go for a good run. Recently couple of ASF members help me run the numbers on that portfolio and so far it has a small +ve edge i.e. it has made me some money even after all the brokerage costs are deducted. Which is better than most of the speculative stock picking newsletters and small cap investing subscription services. I have tried a lot of them and overall most of them have a -ve edge if you put money into every single stock they recommend.

Hey @austrader, found this thread plugging your thread from a while ago... brilliant.