Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Prop Shops in Australia

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fiftyeight said:
I am just learning/fluffing around at the moment, but IF I was to get serious and IF I was to be any good, what do Props look for in trading experience?

R:R
P&L
% Return
Draw down
X amount of years trading
Etc, etc .......

I assume a combination of all of the above, but is there anything more important and what kind of time frame will they be looking at, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years of history?
Click to expand...

I've said many times, % return is not that important as its normally a function of leverage just as much as luck and/or good trading. They want traders who are profitable and want to step up size. It's not that complicated. Just getting the first part seems hard enough.
 
tr8de said:
Hi all,

Is anyone have experience with following prop shops in Australia.

Would be interesting to hear from anyone who completed their training or already trading with one of the firm.

Epoch is also running some competition and they are promising the winner is going to get funded.

http://www.traders4traders.com/

and

http://epochacademy.com.au/

Thanks,
Click to expand...

Look more like companies that exist to make profits by having people pay for their 'training'...there are far more reputable places around AFAIK. Propex would be one.
 
VSntchr said:
Look more like companies that exist to make profits by having people pay for their 'training'...there are far more reputable places around AFAIK. Propex would be one.
Click to expand...

I have checked out Epoch Academys website and on their website they have a competition which says you win training with them if you finish top. However when you click on the competition link on the side menu it says the competition is for a position at their company and 25k to trade with.

Not sure which one is right but I guess they would change it to just a training program since anyone could find someone experienced in Futures trading to help them with the simulation. I am assuming the training program is the same one they offer for about $1000 on their website.
 
What are the differences between Propex and Aliom?

Which of these two prop firms would suit better for an 'outright' trader?

Thanks in advance
 
prophesa said:
Has anyone dealt with Tradeview.com.au?
Click to expand...

Which part specifically ?

I had a chat with them last year re prop trading, Rob seems like a nice guy. Havn't dealt with them further we couldn't come to an agreement, they didn't demand anything unreasonable though.

If about the coaching/courses I'd think twice about spending a few thousand $ for trading education, with any provider.

They are mostly on the automated side. I beleive their fund made 70% in 2013 & 25% in 2014 upto about Aug, not sure what the year ended at.
 
minwa said:
Which part specifically ?
Click to expand...

Training.
I was looking at doing the education course with them and want to make sure they are the real deal. They seem legit but there are pretty of scams out there so I just wanted to see if anyone has dealt with them.
 
Hi !

I would be interested if anyone has information or experience on the current state of Prop opportunities for trainees.

I am a current Economics and finance grad with a keen interest in markets.

I have found the two main discretionary traders are Propex and Genesis(which is a merger of Aliom and Eprop).

As for Quants the two mainstream I found are IMC and Optiver.

I am ok at maths and programming but not good enough to be a quant :(


Cheers

Omega
 
OmegaTrader said:
Hi !

I would be interested if anyone has information or experience on the current state of Prop opportunities for trainees.

I am a current Economics and finance grad with a keen interest in markets.

I have found the two main discretionary traders are Propex and Genesis(which is a merger of Aliom and Eprop).

As for Quants the two mainstream I found are IMC and Optiver.

I am ok at maths and programming but not good enough to be a quant :(


Cheers

Omega
Click to expand...

In terms of the discretionary firms I would strongly suggest you look at Propex over Aliom (Genesis). They have a better system for the new traders and I personally feel you would have a much better chance of success there.

However the type of trading both of these firms offer grads is very competitive, in that you spend your days fighting for queue position and fills across mostly Australian and US interest rate products. These firms will most likely not pay you a wage to learn and it is really sink or swim. You can make it, but it's tough. They take on a lot of traders so in some ways there's nothing to lose to give it a go.

If you are a programmer then IMC and Optiver are clearly better options. These firms will be tougher to get into though.
 
Thanks for the quick response RowanC.

Unfortunately I'm really a quant type, so I'm looking more at discretionary.

Any recent insights or experiences you have to offer on the discretionary trading process would be welcome:)

Do your work for Propex or have a commission deal? haha :D Jokes.

I suppose caveat emptor would apply here. If you wanna be a trader be prepared to suffer. :banghead:

You bought into it.
You didn't prepare to be successful too bad.

From a current utilitarian aspect it still more rational to take a 9-5, then be a trainee.

But.....

You can't choose what you are interested in.

So lucky for supportive parents.



Still, information on how to prepare or any other relevant details would be useful.

I would rather wait and prepare , then jump straight in.


Cheers

Omega
 
OmegaTrader said:
Thanks for the quick response RowanC.

Unfortunately I'm really a quant type, so I'm looking more at discretionary.

Any recent insights or experiences you have to offer on the discretionary trading process would be welcome:)

Do your work for Propex or have a commission deal? haha :D Jokes.

I suppose caveat emptor would apply here. If you wanna be a trader be prepared to suffer. :banghead:

You bought into it.
You didn't prepare to be successful too bad.

From a current utilitarian aspect it still more rational to take a 9-5, then be a trainee.

But.....

You can't choose what you are interested in.

So lucky for supportive parents.



Still, information on how to prepare or any other relevant details would be useful.

I would rather wait and prepare , then jump straight in.


Cheers

Omega
Click to expand...

Why not open an account and try to figure out what it is that they do at prop shops? Sounds like good prep to me...
 
OmegaTrader said:
Thanks for the quick response RowanC.

Unfortunately I'm really a quant type, so I'm looking more at discretionary.

Any recent insights or experiences you have to offer on the discretionary trading process would be welcome:)

Do your work for Propex or have a commission deal? haha :D Jokes.

I suppose caveat emptor would apply here. If you wanna be a trader be prepared to suffer. :banghead:

You bought into it.
You didn't prepare to be successful too bad.

From a current utilitarian aspect it still more rational to take a 9-5, then be a trainee.

But.....

You can't choose what you are interested in.

So lucky for supportive parents.



Still, information on how to prepare or any other relevant details would be useful.

I would rather wait and prepare , then jump straight in.


Cheers

Omega
Click to expand...


Hey Omega

These style of prop firms are basically all based around reading the order book and scalping. It's been a few years since I've been involved with either but they are similar.

The first thing I would do would be to start learning the basics of reading the orderbook. There's a guy called John Grady from nobsdaytrading. He has an ebook. Get a hold of that.

Take a free trial of Xtrader and bring up a couple of DOMs. Maybe the Bund or ZN would be good to start with. Start looking for the buying and selling. That's the name of the game.

I believe Propex would have you starting out trading outright futures with an option to move into spreads. Aliom starts you out on spreads - but tough ones.

In terms of getting into the training program, I'd start brushing up on the mental maths and brainteaser type questions. Search whirlpool and I think you'll find a good example of the questions you'll likely face.

If you are solid at mental maths and show an interest in trading there's a strong chance you'll get in.

My advice would be to try for Propex and learn to trade spreads. Outrights are tough and rely a ton on news and quirky little trades. Spreads I find are far better. I personally find the Aussie products tough in that they are slow moving like the yield curve or STIRs. XT/ZN would be a really good place to start.

If you can program I'd take a look at R and Python. R certainly is a handy tool for modelling spreads and back testing your ideas, that you can then apply to XT/ZN type trades. Quantstrat is a great package.

Good luck.
 
Thank you Canoz for replying and a double thank you to RowanC for the details.

I think will take both of your advice.

Having other peoples insights can allow for more directed approach and easier decision making.

Any other knowledge is welcome :)

My plan is to research scalping strategies similar to ones used by the mentioned props.


Also software and brokers.Demos for a short period. Then to move on to a really small micro account to practice as soon as possible.

In the background I will be working on my other skills- mental maths, coding, excel,general knowledge e.t.c. and my own unusual ideas.

After this I will take a punt at applying for prop trading.


I just feel that this is a better to take this time and take a more structured approach learning and practising elements that are relevant to this style of prop trading then to rely on pure luck.:2twocents

Hopefully then I will have a better chance.


Thanks again.

Omega
 
OmegaTrader said:
Thank you Canoz for replying and a double thank you to RowanC for the details.

I think will take both of your advice.

Having other peoples insights can allow for more directed approach and easier decision making.

Any other knowledge is welcome :)

My plan is to research scalping strategies similar to ones used by the mentioned props.


Also software and brokers.Demos for a short period. Then to move on to a really small micro account to practice as soon as possible.

In the background I will be working on my other skills- mental maths, coding, excel,general knowledge e.t.c. and my own unusual ideas.

After this I will take a punt at applying for prop trading.


I just feel that this is a better to take this time and take a more structured approach learning and practising elements that are relevant to this style of prop trading then to rely on pure luck.:2twocents

Hopefully then I will have a better chance.


Thanks again.

Omega
Click to expand...

There's a good basic intro to spread trading on Amazon....the books name and author is posted here somewhere, the authors name id Rajan something....i'll try to find more when i'm back home.
 
When prop teach you to scalp now days, its not because they actually want you to be a scalper its because they want you to spend your day legging spreads which is 90% of your job. Getting filled on a bid and offer in an outright market allows you to lean on the entire spread book which is a distinct edge in a market that may trade 1-4 prices a day. Getting filled on a wider 6 and 9 month spread will get you filled on the bid/offer in the far more competitive 3 months etc etc...

If your going to start trading small on a personal account I would trade STIRS not bonds. Not because they're better but for a small account getting a DV01 neutral trade can mean you have up to 5 to 4 ratios etc which is quite lumpy for a small account. STIRS on the other hand are $25 a full tick in their respective currencies and will likely trade 2-4 prices in a a spread market over a month! As such you will be able to build up your size far more consistently as well as hold trades through sessions with a broader view and not be spooked because one leg has gone offered.

Below is the 6 month Eurodollar fly. It consists of the fly book, two calendar spreads and 3 outright markets which make up the spread. As you can see on the chart, throughout brexit, the spread only traded 4 ticks the entire month. Set up something similar in whatever market and just watch how it trades for a few weeks. I.e how does it respond to equity strength, bond strength, currency moves, time of day, do bids and offers trade or does it just lift prices. Then start going live with 1 lot. Sim trading is almost useless as half the game is getting filled which isn't accurate in Demo.

chart.jpgdom.PNG
 
Hi JMG86

Which platform/ broker would you recommend to do this.

Any resources you could recommend also?


Thanks for the advice mate.

Omega
 

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