Outraged.....

Rederob,

At this stage there is no evidence that the accused had any US targets in mind, which makes no sense as there is no motive for the allegations given that Canada has not been a supporter of the US in the Middle East.

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You seem fixated on the US. It shows though that others are being targeted in a world wide conspiracy.

But we are pandering to the likes of weak minded souls with fanciful media reports that lack substance, yet are taken up as the gospel according to Snake and others.

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Think what you like, the point above is what is really important for most to realise.

Meanwhile in Sudan hundreds are being killed every week and many more are dying of starvation and disease. And in Iraq the monthly toll of 1000 local deaths and the odd coalition warrior is a fair price to pay for democracy.

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Yes something more should be done. Even in Somalia, where they don`t want sharia.

It's raining here today but unlikely to prevent water restrictions moving to a higher level next week. And petrol is so damned expensive that I have found another excuse for not mowing the lawn on the Queen's birthday weekend.

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Not sure where you are going with this.

Snake Pliskin said:

Not sure where you are going with this.

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Snake
It's about what we regard as important.
If it's not directly affecting us, why care!

In relation to US I can only say that I have no "fixation" on the nation.
The US stands out for its duplicity, stupidity and magnanamity.
The US is the biggest debtor to the UN. Yet the US is driving UN reforms.
The US promotes "abstinance" as the key to unwanted pregnancy and sexual diseases. It is reluctant to understand that condom use is responsible for far better outcomes.
The US provides the world's most generous contributions of food to famine relief programs. In doing so it also provides subsidies to US-producers to both grow and not grow that make the lunacy of EEC bloc practices the stuff of kindergarten.

I always like to return to the thread title, "outraged".
I am outraged that we don't teach people to read more critically, and to value thinking and understanding.
I am outraged that the media has turned the lowest common denominator into the lowest form of intelligence, spoon fed with a diatribe of catchy headlines and mischievous mishmashes of misrepresentations.

well, the israellis have just killed innocent beach goers.... in gaza....

great!!!!
more cause for outrage... and quite ligitamate outrage too... i am sure we would all agree...

frankly, i don't know whose right and whose wrong... we are dealing with issues that are not simple to resolve and go back centuries.... and have been brought to a head with the israel - palestine issue...

debate on a forum such a this achieves nothing as no one i know has ever changed his/her opinion....

Rafa said:

debate on a forum such a this achieves nothing as no one i know has ever changed his/her opinion....

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Rafa,

It may not seem so, but my views have changed over time through rational debate, observation and discussion (and out and out vitriolic arguments LOL). I am sure there are others also.

Cheers

Rafa said:

well, the israellis have just killed innocent beach goers.... in gaza....

great!!!!
more cause for outrage... and quite ligitamate outrage too... i am sure we would all agree...

frankly, i don't know whose right and whose wrong... we are dealing with issues that are not simple to resolve and go back centuries.... and have been brought to a head with the israel - palestine issue...

debate on a forum such a this achieves nothing as no one i know has ever changed his/her opinion....

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Rafa,

You're getting to the point....issues like that are not black & white.

Western media only shows the western bright side & if you watch the eastern media you'll see a different side of the story!

Snake,

I can reply to each one of the "no muslim outrage" you had in your first but I won't bother....you won't change & I won't change, discussion on an already made opinion is a waste of time.

I think the word "muslim" is a bit too big for you & I see discrimination in your posts based on someone's belief not act.. if civilisation & human development will get us one day to sterotype based on religen or race or colour then defenitely your best answer will be from few clowns that see the world from 1 side.

Most of terrorists are muslims (lets not mention those who killed the Jews in Europe, those were phylosophists!!) & those you mentioned done all the killings deserve to be punished to whatever they done but generlisaion like saying muslims as in few billions around the world is not an educated or civilised statement & you have no understanding to their psychology or motive for actions so you can't judge their actions.

The outrage from the newspapers cartoon could simply be understood if any of those that mentioned "they're fed up with muslims" in this post care to understand the basics of muslim Religion which is built on respect to ALL RELIGIONS to be able understand their actions... but let me tell you something....there's someone probably at the other side of the world on another website writing similar posts about US & Aust going to Iraq killing thousands for FUN! as we all see, there was no real reason...up to this moment they got Saddam the bastard but he's still on trial & probably nothing will happen to him.

Every action has a reaction: this is physics, understand the action & what effects it will have & then analyse reaction & then say if was too big or too small.........you're just being a big hero now with absolutly no understanding of the muslim releign or psychology!

If their actions doesn't make sense to you (being too big for such a little cartoon) then be sure that someone could be laughing at you in the other side of the world becuase they don't understand how you think

Don't generalise & say muslims, in plain english its called discrimiation & again if freedom of speech allows to call anyone what you like then these "muslims" have the right to respond to you in any way they like.

That's my

cheers,

Rafa said:

well, the israellis have just killed innocent beach goers.... in gaza....

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They were unlucky.
Had they killed a few older boys and men instead we would be reading a report about a plot to build a beachside weapons battery that was foiled by vigilant Israelis.

Just out of interest - my understanding is that zarqawi was killed for killing innocent people.

Now obviously it is good that zarqawi is dead, but in the same attack, 1 baby and 1 women were also killed. I would suggest that on the balance of probability this baby and women were also innocent people. We cannot keep doing this. The end does NOT justify the means.

There has been a lot of innocent blood spilt in iraq. Remember the family in the minibus that were slaughtered for not stopping as they approached a checkpoint?

Lots of innocent people are now dead. It may have started with innocent people dying in 9/11, but how can we as a society kill more innocent people in retalliation? This war is wrong.

The silliest thing of all is that the USA would LOVE to get out of Iraq now that they have had an election.

If the Sunnis and the Shiites would stop blowing each other up for a few months then the USA would leave, but after the last stuff up they can't be seen to abandon Iraqis while there is still fighting.

After the USA leave they could then have a civil war to sort out who is going to rule.

the USA have been getting into the crap for many decades, but most of the time they manage to extracate themselves from it, thanks to their financial muscle... a few well placed bribes never did anyone any harm...

i remember my classmate in school telling me about his home country, Chile... the US pretty much funded a coo and installed a puppet dictatorship in Pinochet... those who were with Pinochet got very wealthy, in return, the US corporations moved in to exploit chile's natural resources...the majority who were against were brutally silicened... or lead lives of abject poverty...

why do i bring this up... its because in chile's instance, they were all christians... and 90% of Chile hate the US!!! Infact, most of South Amrica is like that, cause they are one of the first continents to be plundered by the US and US Corporations...

The English also had a poilicy in the late 1800's of divide and conquer... they implemented that poilicy in India (a country where muslims and hindus were living peacefully side by side for atleast 1000 years... the seeded those thoughts in the remnants of the old Ottoman Empire, to facilitate its breakup... leading to all these man made states of Iraq, Iran, etc, with false boundaries...

It was a recipe for disaster....

In the end... we are reaping, what we have sowed...

The USA now, English & French in 17th-18th century, all had to fight to "secure resources" because all these empires & civilisations were built on module: constant supply of resources = growth.

The idea that the controller of the resources could have a different idea to USA now (it could be religious or social ideas) sends fear to USA & its growth using the same capitalist module which we all enjoy.

everything could've been working fine if all world including middle east realise the benefits of capitalism as they'll make sure without USA interference that USA gets their resrouces consistently (as they need their resources too).

the middleeast has a world of poverty & social inbalance that will never allow a consistent capitalist system to function to its optimum, traditions & culture prevent them from waking up one day realising that they'll be part of a growing world. they're a way behind technologically & its too late for them to catch up!

those are in control in middle east realise the fact that its a pointless arguement to change their countries & they have control of a lot of resources while (in theory) they reflect people's demands & desires thru what they call democracy & their only weapon is resources (OIL).

Here comes the democracy's paradox that makes this world we have now an ugly place, in Isreal people vote thru pure democracy to not have palastine while others in middleeast inc Palastine vote thru pure democracy to not have Isreal!

Now this is the real question: which democracy is going to work to the benefit of the world in a conflict where everyone is not willing to compromise. the land is question is too much to lose for religious purposes for Jews & Muslims & both realise that they die everyday for the same thing.....its not the land...its the relegious purpose!

we get extremists from both sides being fed up with democracy being so paralised for them to achieve their goals, losing hope in capitalism to get them any better as the representers of capitalism (the western world) is fighting with their opponent!

The world we're living in will always stay as it is & nothing will change, west againist east....not because of religion... because the poor will get poorer & the rich will get richer!

cheers,

Rederob:

You said in response to Snake:

rederob said:

I am a little more critical than you.
To begin, it is acknowledged that the CN tower was not a target.
One suspect is "accused" of wanting to behead the PM. We will probably learn in the future that he was taped making a joke about it, rather than having a plan - and it would be a silly and almost impossible plan to implement.

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Who decided that the CN tower was not a target?
If the accused were only "making a joke about it", why did they have three tonnes of ammonium nitrate?

rederob said:

At this stage there is no evidence that the accused had any US targets in mind, which makes no sense as there is no motive for the allegations given that Canada has not been a supporter of the US in the Middle East.

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So, are you saying that because we can see no motive for their alleged plans said plans did not exist and the whole thing is a figment of the imagination of the Canadian authorities?

By the way, Canada does have troops in Afghanistan.

Julia

Julia

Who decided that the CN tower was not a target?

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Are you saying that you know it was?
Are you saying that charges laid include intent to blow up the CN tower.
I am saying that those with some knowledge of their intentions have ruled out the CN tower as a target for bombing.
But maybe with a bit of torture we can have that added to the charge sheet later on.

If the accused were only "making a joke about it", why did they have three tonnes of ammonium nitrate?

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Perhaps they are farmers?
I know the Canadian Mounties "sold" the ammonium nitrate to the group in a "sting" operation.
By the way, my remark about the "joke" related to beheading the PM, not any bombing accusations.

So, are you saying that because we can see no motive for their alleged plans said plans did not exist and the whole thing is a figment of the imagination of the Canadian authorities?

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Not at all.
I'm saying that if there should be a "target" a very poor one would be Canadian rather than American. Canada has 2,300 peacekeepers in Afghanistan, but never supported the US invasion of Iraq. Canadian diplomacy and public policy would give few cause to mount a terrorist campaign - and for what purpose?
Motive and intent are key ingredients for a crime. At this stage "motive" is a bit hazy, and "intent" so far is based on buying amonium nitrate and owning mobile phones: I think we will need a bit more to get a conviction.

Many Americans still think David Hicks is a highly trained terrorist that fought against them in Afghanistan.
I think David is a very naughty boy!
And I think our Government is weak in the extreme for condoning a military judicial process that even the UK has condemned: In doing so they also ensured their citizens were returned to the UK where I do not believe any of them face any charges that are terrorist related.

If you want an example of misguided justice and terrorism, review our home grown Hilton Bombing and the manipulation of evidence by authorities to prove a case. Only when guilt overcame the real culprit in the early 90s did we learn who actually was responsible.

Perhaps, Julia, I am also more critical than you.
But even if it were true it is of little value to anyone, as it is examination and context of the critique that is more important.