Outraged.....

[rederob]

And you`ve just demonstrated why santimonious religious zealots like you are on the nose and always will be. And i mean from all religious persuasion, pray all you like you will always be a sanctimonious zealot. OH what will happen if your prayers arent answered should i expect my house to be burned down?

I was Christened C of E, my children go to Roman Catholic schools, and I celebrate Chinese New Year in a Buddhist Temple.
I have friends that are Aboriginal, and Torres Strait Islander, Buddhist, Jewish and Muslim, not to mention the odd white person who may or may not believe in god.
I have seen the Tooth Fairy bring more happiness than god, so I shall reserve my judgement on the role of religion in society in terms of engendering a world we can all live in and respect each other.
I see my prayers for you are yet to be answered and I am encouraged by you to work much harder.
I sincerely thank you for your honesty.

 

[visual]

see redrob,now you are really annoying me,
first you are better than me then smarter then you impose your prayers on me even when i have informed you they are not appreciated than you say i1m a bigot racist and then you assume that your lifestyle is so far removed from mine that you dare to be presumptious .
I`m probably the person who you deal with everyday but dont notice because you`re so lost in your own judgement.and by the way psycho babble doesnt work on me either,be honest you havent been able to convice me that you are right so you`ve gone for the american psycho babble.you in fact are not sincere or honest.

 

[rederob]

visual
Every day we deserve a good laugh.
Thank you
Your honesty is very refreshing.

I try not to take life too seriously as it is very bad for one's health to "own" all of other people's ills.
When I came to Queensland and couldn't spell beer, I got the world wide web to help me, so keyed in "xxx.com".
Obviously I could not count either, so instead of getting hooked on the local beer, I find this incredible website pops up all the time, to my great delight!

 

[Julia]

Rederob

You seem to have overlooked my concern that many indigenous people appear to use their government (taxpayer) supplied income to buy alcohol rather than food. This is what I mean about responsibility for choices.

Regarding the difficulties of living in a remote area, I agree absolutely that they are enormous, and no, I absolutely would not want to try it myself.
Hell, the first bit of dry, dusty red dirt, and mouthful of flies sends me scuttling back to the coast. However, couldn't any indigenous people who really find the inconvenience of living in a remote area unacceptable move to the coast where they are less like to encounter the shopping and refrigeration problems which you say they presently endure. I can't see why I would need to move from my home if some indigenous people want to move to the coast. There is plenty of room for all of us.

I don't really think my occupation is particularly relevant, but as it happens I do spend a considerable amount of time assisting disadvantaged people, indigenous and other. This time is offered voluntarily without payment.
If you'd been with ASF for longer you would have been unable to help noticing in various threads my sustained concerns for those who seem to have been left behind in our affluent society, particularly the mentally ill who effectively have no voice.

I do agree with some of the things you have said, but wonder if perhaps they would be better received if you weren't quite so antagonistic towards opposing views.

Bullmarket's moderate expression of his nonetheless passionately held beliefs in the RU486 thread is a good example of being able to defend one's position but remain respectful of other people's opinions. I might be wrong (often am) but feel that sometimes the quietest voice is heard the most.

With good wishes

Julia

 

[rederob]

Julia
I simply presented a “challenge”, in a fashion so that you may end up answering your own concerns. If you have read into it “antagonism”, then so be it: It is important to challenge views that may be held on tenuous ground. It is also important to appreciate the nature of problems faced from the perspective of those facing them.

In relation to your “occupation”, I only asked in the context of the “challenge”, as most in these communities are in the public purse – health workers, educators and the like. But thank you for volunteering what you do in real life.

In relation to your concern that many indigenous people appear to use their government (taxpayer) supplied income to buy alcohol rather than food, I do agree it is a difficult issue. A few points: First, more and more communities are going totally “dry”. Unfortunately sly groggers (mostly opportunistic white folk) are undoing a lot of this good work. Secondly, opening times for wet canteens are being better managed in communities that allow alcohol. Last, one needs to ask why governments have not introduced a better benefits payment system. To some extent this last point is reasonably addressed in communities that manage Community Develop Employment Projects (CDEP). Over 30,000 Indigenous participants receive CDEP (ie, they “work”) rather than get the “dole”.

It is true that Australia is big enough for all of us. However, you and I probably call home the property we reside at or own at any point of time – and we can shift around Australia and have many homes. “Home” to Indigenous Australians is the land: Land is a source of life to which they belong – and a spiritual base which must be maintained. Because this is not a concept we have understood, trying to make Indigenous people conform to our standards is destined to fail.

 

[Happy]

But there is bit of problem too.

You cannot have 4WD driving native family on Government Funded pension living traditional life.

This doesn’t rub well with me.
It should be either / or
Traditional punishment with spear and immediately after traditional punishment is performed, patient lands in our emergency department.
This doesn’t rub well with me either.

Say rape is punished traditional way and we put fellow together and he is free to go on with his life in few weeks.
Punishment? What punishment?

 

[wayneL]

Well tribal law, and therefore two separate laws would probably cause more problems than it solved. Can that idea then. There is an inherent problem in the way blackfella is regarded and treated, even by bleeding heart do-gooders, that does no good at all.

This point of rederobs, is the crux of it:

“Home” to Indigenous Australians is the land: Land is a source of life to which they belong – and a spiritual base which must be maintained. Because this is not a concept we have understood, trying to make Indigenous people conform to our standards is destined to fail.

We don't understand that. We try to say we do, particularly farmers (and farmers do have a connection to the land) but not in the same way as tribal peoples such as our indiginous folk. It is the same situation in "the evil empire" with the indians.

Ironically, Australians empathise remarkably well with the american indian, yet has zero sympathy with our own indiginous peoples. Why is that? The situation is so similar!

Here in Geraldton, 7% of the population is aboriginal, so I get to see 1st hand their behaviour, as well as our own behaviour towards them. As a white anglo-saxon, I cannot condone the antisocial behaviour of the blackfellas here. BUT, the way they are treated, even when not doing anything wrong, by whitefella, is repulsive. It is unquestionably racist. Would whitefella be any different if we were subjected to the same rubbish?

On Australia day, missus and I took the dogs for a walk around Geraldton at around 6:00 PM. What an experience. There were drunkards everywhere, passed out bodies, threatening behaviour, fights, broken bottles, someone threw a firecracker at us out of a passing car....we were sh!tting ourselves....couldn't get home quickly enough....

...and not a blackfella in sight, this was all whitefella.

My point here is that they are the way they are, not because of what they are, but because of the situation they're in. They act like bums because we treat them like bums. I would not trade places.

Cheers

 

[Julia]

Well tribal law, and therefore two separate laws would probably cause more problems than it solved. Can that idea then. There is an inherent problem in the way blackfella is regarded and treated, even by bleeding heart do-gooders, that does no good at all.

This point of rederobs, is the crux of it:



We don't understand that. We try to say we do, particularly farmers (and farmers do have a connection to the land) but not in the same way as tribal peoples such as our indiginous folk. It is the same situation in "the evil empire" with the indians.

Ironically, Australians empathise remarkably well with the american indian, yet has zero sympathy with our own indiginous peoples. Why is that? The situation is so similar!

Here in Geraldton, 7% of the population is aboriginal, so I get to see 1st hand their behaviour, as well as our own behaviour towards them. As a white anglo-saxon, I cannot condone the antisocial behaviour of the blackfellas here. BUT, the way they are treated, even when not doing anything wrong, by whitefella, is repulsive. It is unquestionably racist. Would whitefella be any different if we were subjected to the same rubbish?

On Australia day, missus and I took the dogs for a walk around Geraldton at around 6:00 PM. What an experience. There were drunkards everywhere, passed out bodies, threatening behaviour, fights, broken bottles, someone threw a firecracker at us out of a passing car....we were sh!tting ourselves....couldn't get home quickly enough....

...and not a blackfella in sight, this was all whitefella.

My point here is that they are the way they are, not because of what they are, but because of the situation they're in. They act like bums because we treat them like bums. I would not trade places.

Cheers

Wayne:

You make a really essential point in your post above: i.e. that most people behave pretty much as we expect them to behave. If a group of people is labelled as being anti-social, welfare dependent and no good parasites on society, then it's a pretty good bet they will behave that way.

Over the years I've proved the reverse of this point by telling people I've trained that they are capable of achieving much, and that by believing in their capacity to achieve their goals, those goals will become easy for them.
Renowned psychologist Martin Seligman has written extensively on how we can change our lives as a result of changing our thinking. If anyone is interested, his book "Learned Optimism" is a great introduction to the subject of altered thought patterns. The same idea is carried through in the commonly used Behaviour Modification Therapy by psychologists throughout the community.

Rederob, you may know this: is it Noel Pearson who has for some years now been advocating a change of attitude towards indigenous communities?
(Sorry: I sometimes forget names). He has railed against the welfare dependent mentality and has suggested it is time for indigenous communities to essentially "stop feeling sorry for themselves" and take advantage of some of the opportunities which are truly available to them as much as to the rest of us.

This brings me back to Seligman's approach once more: if we continue to tell indigenous people that they are disadvantaged, cannot possibly expect to enjoy better health, educational opportunities et al, then they will continue to accept that. There are some immensely successful indigenous role models, (Lois O'Donoghue, Marcia Langton, etc etc.) and others who are not so well known. If we and indigenous communities focused more on these people and stopped accepting they were for ever doomed to live a second class existence, then perhaps we would see their naturally great characteristics such as pride and spirituality overcome their feelings of disadvantage.

Many may disagree with me, but just think: if you tell a little kid of say five or six that he has done really well at something, don't you think he will be so proud that he will be inspired to be even better at whatever it was the next time he tries?

I just think as human beings we are motivated to an extraordinary extent by reinforcement. Whether this reinforcement of our behaviour is positive or negative can determine our future behaviour.

So, perhaps if we stop telling indigenous people they are disadvantaged, cannot possibly be expected to ever overcome their difficulties, and instead reinforce all their positive attributes, isn't it just possible they will respond in a positive manner?

Perhaps I'm being idealistic? If so, then that's OK. It's better than not trying to come up with any remotely possible solution.

Julia

 

[wayneL]

Julia,

Great post! Totally agree.

 

[rederob]

Julia
Unlike me, you are a personal of wonderful spirit.
May you be cloned many times over when science has its way with us all and the Health Minister loses control!
And yes, Noel Pearson (http://www.isx.org.au/people/1026013663_2590.html) has championed the cause, and from a position nowadays largely "on the outer".
So successful has our PM been at fragmenting and marginalising Indigenous issues that most Australians do not know the name of the Minister for Indigenous Affairs (I know visual knows because he reads a lot).
But I am very wrong on this as Senator Vanstone claims a major victory by integrating all Aboriginal programs back into mainstream federal Departments, where savvy whitepeople will make excellent decisions, she is sure.
Unless the Australian Public Service culture has changed monumentally in the last 15 years, Indigenous people will re-learn that they are disadvantaged because that is the prevailing mentality.
I dearly hope to be proven wrong.

 

[Milk Man]

Julia, couldn't agree more! I could use some positive thinking lessons myself. No-one tells a black jackaroo hes lazy (because it would be a bloody lie) so he works dawn til dusk. Theres a phrase amongst farmers 'work like a blackfella' to reinforce this as well.

The what may be the easy part though; how might we engineer such a change?

 

[Happy]

Wayne:

I just think as human beings we are motivated to an extraordinary extent by reinforcement. Whether this reinforcement of our behaviour is positive or negative can determine our future behaviour.

Julia

Positive reinforcement in US got to the point, that child cannot handle negative one.
No easy solution here, but I think there are Elders now who decide what community does, and system abuse is entrenched.
Suppose pendulum will swing again one day.

Did anybody notice that parents will be asked to lift their game?
They will have to sign an agreement and if not children will be taken away?

Suppose, sarcastically I can call it

Stolen generation mark II

 

[sam76]

Haven't looked over the thread to see if a link has already been posted - sorry if it has.

heard the cartoons were publish on political commentator Tim Blair's website.

here's the link. http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/media_told/

I have to say they aren't as bad as I thought they would be.

 

[bunyip]

Did someone mention muslims imposing their way of life on us??? wtf we're the ones in there trying to spread 'democracy'.. the primary factor linking all suicide bombings is not religion, the common theme is its a response to foreign occupancy

OK....So if the suicide bombings and wholesale slaughter in Iraq are a response to foreign occupancy and are not linked to religion, then the slaughter would suddenly end if the coalition forces suddenly pulled out of Iraq, right?
WRONG!
The violence and mayhem would continue in its present dramatic form until one of the two main religious factions, the Sunis or the Sheeites, completely dominated and suppressed the other.
Even then, the killings wouldn't end. They'd probably just become less obvious and less dramatic, there would probably be more Husseins style killings where people simply disappeared and were never heard of again. But the killings would continue all right, make no mistake about that.
Think about it....Under the brutal dictatorship of Suddam Hussein and his religious faction, hundreds of thousands were killed, and the killing was continuing. More than 5000 were killed in one go when the bastards gassed an entire Kurdish village.

The establishment of democracy is perhaps the only way to stop the wholesale slaughter in Iraq. However, establishing democracy is proving to be difficult, and may even be impossible. The centuries old tribal mentality of Iraq, and their absolutely fanatical and intolerant religious attitudes, are not at all conductive to the establishment and acceptance of democracy.

Bunyip

 

[rederob]

bunyip
I suspect you are right in that tribal societies have difficulty adapting to democracy.
In respect of your killings attributable to Saddam, I find it curious that he is not being charged with anywhere near the number of murders you suggest.
He was/is a madman, and a brutal killer to boot.
Yet there is as much evidence that Iran gassed the Kurds as there is that Saddam did.
To date the Americans have been shown to lie more often than Saddam.
"Liberation" costs about a 1000 deaths a month, kidnappings galore, and an oil rich country that cannot even provide its peoples with fuel.
It seems we were not content to kill Iraqis through an oppressive sanctions regime followed up by a deceitful war. We are now giving them further means through democracy to kills themselves to their hearts discontent.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

and then there is Canada.

 

[bunyip]

Rederob

Even here in Australia, mass murderers are not charged with all the murders they've committed. I suspect the reason is that it's just too difficult and prolonged to present evidence that someone has killed a number of people, not to mention unnecessary....one conviction is just as good as 10 convictions, or even 100.
I guess that's how Hussein's trial is proceding too.....only a small number of charges being brought against him.

As for lies....I'm sure there are many told by both sides. Reargdless of who gassed those 5000 Kurds, I think there's some prettty convincing evidence that Hussein was a brutal dictator who killed many.

Regarding your comment that we are giving them further means through democracy to kill themselves to their hearts content......
Democracy does not exist in Iraq, and perhaps never will, despite the best efforts to establish it. Iraq is in a transitional period, no longer under the iron fist of Hussein, but by no means an established democracy either. Such a transitional phase has created an environment in which lawlessness is flourishing, and is being fuelled by tribal tensions and religious fanaticism, and facilitated by the lack of an effective police force and army.
I'm really wondering what will be the eventual outcome in Iraq. A hard won democracy where the violence will be brought under control? Or an all out civil war which could go on for years, but would sooner or later see one of the two main religious factions established as the government, and this government being headed by another Hussein style dictator?
The whole thing is a mess. I'm just pleased it's not my job to sort it out!

Bunyip

 

[rederob]

The whole thing is a mess. I'm just pleased it's not my job to sort it out!

Seems that's what everyone else reckons too.
Thank god we didn't cut and run.
Our media would have a gaping hole to fill.

Hey Pilskin, what's with Canada?
Are the Americans invading them too, for their oil!

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Hey Pilskin, what's with Canada?
Are the Americans invading them too, for their oil!

Don`t watch the news heh?

Islamists wanting to blow up the CNN tower with 3 tonnes of explosives, and behead the Prime Minister. The authorities stopped it.

It is like this: Islamists not muslims hate white western humans and desire to kill them through misinterpretation of a little book. Weird. they even kill themselves too, weirder.

 

[rederob]

Don`t watch the news heh?
Islamists wanting to blow up the CNN tower with 3 tonnes of explosives, and behead the Prime Minister. The authorities stopped it.

Snake
I am a little more critical than you.
To begin, it is acknowledged that the CN tower was not a target.
One suspect is "accused" of wanting to behead the PM. We will probably learn in the future that he was taped making a joke about it, rather than having a plan - and it would be a silly and almost impossible plan to implement.
At this stage there is no evidence that the accused had any US targets in mind, which makes no sense as there is no motive for the allegations given that Canada has not been a supporter of the US in the Middle East.
A more important question is why the accused are not being given access to lawyers.
If the Police have the evidence they need to make arrests, then providing access to lawyers should not be a problem.
I don't doubt for a minute there are fruit loops and fanatics planning terrorist deeds every day of the week, somewhere. And I think it's great when we can nip in the bud their schemes.
But we are pandering to the likes of weak minded souls with fanciful media reports that lack substance, yet are taken up as the gospel according to Snake and others.
Meanwhile in Sudan hundreds are being killed every week and many more are dying of starvation and disease. And in Iraq the monthly toll of 1000 local deaths and the odd coalition warrior is a fair price to pay for democracy.

It's raining here today but unlikely to prevent water restrictions moving to a higher level next week. And petrol is so damned expensive that I have found another excuse for not mowing the lawn on the Queen's birthday weekend.