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Outraged.....

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visual said:
The issue of women however is downright oppression,not much explaining there i`m afraid. :swear:
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where did u get this idea about women from. If u didnt c it urself, and saw/heard from media, u cant believe everything u hear my friend..

media is very good like that, for example, does any1 remember timothy mcvay, made oklamhoma bombings 1995, when bombs first happened, it was blamed on terrorism, (look at newspaper archives if u dont believe me), and blamed on a terrorist, yet when they found out it was a christian who did this, the word terrorist was no longer used, quite funny i think. Comments are welcome
 

visual
I seldom get personal in my comments but this time I will, so please take my comments now very personally.
The points you asked about, including female circumcision and denying women the vote, are not elements of Muslim practice. When Pakistan elected Benazir Bhutto as President do you believe it happened because the population thought she was a man? Yes, that's a facetious remark. My point being that if you think a Muslim nation devalues women, they are hardly likely to elect one as President.
The world's most populous Islamic nation, Indonesia, elected Megawati Sukarnoputri as President only 5 years ago. You would be hard pressed to find in Indonesia the many contentions you have raised.
That a predominantly Muslim culture has different values to ours should come as no great surprise. Years ago my children would yell out that "the Mormons are coming", or "the Jehova's are at the door". It seems that we as Christians can't quite agree on the best way to go about worshiping our god and some religions want to thrust theirs forward as the only proper way.
If as you say you read a lot, why are you trotting out radical aspects that are not representative of the beliefs of the majority of those following the Islamic faith?
And if they are not radical aspects you will be able to tell me where in Australia the matters you talk about are practised by Muslims as a matter of course.

In relation to the two instances of absolutely innocent children being shot dead I was amazed to read that you called these "political events". No politician ordered the killings of these children. Moreover, the events are straightforward crimes, though some will call them war crimes because of the environment in which they occurred.
I am not sure which part of "innocent" or children" or both that you do not understand.
You will have to explain to my incomprehensible mind how anyone can justify knowingly twice shooting a very little girl who was trying to find her way back home at night. The explanation for shooting in the back a young lad walking with friends, none carrying anything, was that he might have picked up and thrown stones: This is deemed a terrorist act by Israelis! If you, visual, regard this as a good explanation for killing someone then your standards and mine are poles apart. Your contention that it depends on whose side you are on is arrant nonsense. If that is what you believe however, I am at a loss to understand my fellow man: Killing of innocent children is the gravest of crimes against humanity.
I did not want to directly anwer your questions because they smacked of ignorance and bigotry. I preferred to direct you to a source where you could learn more.
If you read the linked article and understood what the Muslim faith truly stands for you would not have replied, and nor I.
As others in this thread have noted, we are probably on a hiding to nothing as many have a well established view and will not change it come hell or high water.
I hope you understand I have respect for your right to present your point of view. And I will always defend your right to present your view. We clearly differ markedly in how we see the world, what we understand, and what we choose to believe.
I trust you now regard your question as answered and we can move on.
 
Nizar,violence against women in fact is a very real and very big problem,
however while everywhere around the world its treated as a problem ,muslim seems to have institutionalised into their way of living.It has been documented reapetedly about women not only being raped but then being blamed for the rape.In Sydney that way of thinking did`nt work.But in the muslim world that tactic is used all the time.What about that victim in Pakistan,raped on the orders of an elder because her brother did something to offend a better family than his,so she was gang raped.Because she spoke out and made international headlines Musharraf took away her passport so she couldnt travel overseas,this is a long story and its being going on for years.Eventually she did get her passport back,apparently he didnt want her problems aired overseas because ,why should everyone know.This is all documented.In a report shown on the abc.(Iknow that sometimes you cant believe everything that you see on television)but then you have saudi arabia,where women still are not allowed to drive.And only recently won the right to vole in local elections(insignificant but)Pakistan where thoudands of women die everyyear killed in honour killings ,sure the government pays lip service and says that its a crime but not many murders against women actually result in jail time or even in jail.And by the way in Australia itself up to recently you had the law of provocation where a man could kill his wife or girlfriend and then say he was provoked,after many years finally it was dropped.You see thats the way progress should work,see something wrong and fix it,or rather have the right to agitate to fix it.
Please understand that I am not being racist,,the plight of women in the muslim world is just so absurd and so wrong.Even the UN ambassador for women some time ago commented,she said something along the lines of ,violence against women is actually increasing and as a problem it is getting worse ,however these days the excuse for doing nothing seems to have become that its part of their culture or religion to be treated like that.
 
rederob,
I see you stayed away from afganistan and pakistan ect,
by the way you`ve heard appearances can be deceiving right.
Sukanaputra was elected because she was a woman exactly!
Buttho ,can you tell me in her time how many women were honour killed,or had acid thrown in their faces.
Like I said appearances can be deceiving.
While Bhutto was in charge how many schools for girls were opened,or maintained.
And by the way rearead my earlier post,you have misinterpreted quite a chunk of it
 

Bhutto was President of Pakistan.
Education of women in Afghanistan is now occurring at a rapid rate.
Honour killings and the other matters you raise are crimes in those nations - it's no different here where they are also crimes!
It is not so much that appearances can be deceiving at all: You appearance is abundantly apparent to all readers of this forum.
Perpetuate radicalism, bigotry and intolerance here and we can form our repective views.
 
rederob,again with the personal vitriol,
notice the same missing in mine,I suppose its because i have a point you on the other hand dont.
Do me a favour re read my posts relating to your answers,
 
visual said:
rederob,again with the personal vitriol,
notice the same missing in mine,I suppose its because i have a point you on the other hand dont.
Do me a favour re read my posts relating to your answers,
Click to expand...
visual
It is clear that you have not read the article I linked for you earlier, or have chosen to discount it, or have not understood it.
If you believe I have engaged in personal vitriol, will you please do me the honour of reporting it to moderators/administrators so that I may be banned for breaching forum rules.
It is one thing to have "a point"; it is another for it to stand scrutiny.
You and I have a different slant on the world. I will never condone the killing of innocents or children but where do you stand?
If you wish to add some balance or logic to your statements I welcome further discussion.
So far you have made unsubstantiated claims and presented only the most radical of perspectives that detractors of Muslim ferry out to denigrate all of its followers.
The theme of this thread was based on Snake Pliskin's "Outrage...."
I am outraged by most barbarous acts, as are most people.
I am more outraged when the State sanctions murder, or lies and deceives or fails to investigate when murders do occur.
Most of the matters you have raised are crimes or offences in the countries you have named, and should be dealt with according to the laws of their land.

Remember that you began your questioning of my views when you asked, "whats your opinion on the tratment of women in these countries,afganistan,pakistan,ect.... ".
Given that Australia has yet to elect a female Prime Minister I can conclude that Muslims have already demonstrated a willingness to embrace women as leaders of men and all others in the nations they presided over.
 

If one undertakes a little bit of research one can find a hell of a lot. Forget the press! Would you care to explain the stages of Jihad? Would you care to explain why Jews and Christians are vilified in the book muslims revere?

The Oklahoma bombing was by a terrorist. And, yes he wasn`t a Muslim.

If you want the concerns of people to evaporate stop muslims from kidnapping etc. It`s not good for Islam.

If you are a Muslim start to make change!

Constantly whinging about being vilified by the world - revelation: it`s all part of the Jihad process!
 
rederob,
pakistan one of the most corrupted countries in the world elects a woman prime minister,whooppee.Who then gets kicked out for corruption.Are you saying that we should elect a pm just because shes a woman.

Yet you still havent answered my question,about how women get treated in some islamic countries.

Are you not outraged that rape victims are forced to marry their rapists,or if they refuse can be sentenced to death for adultery,are you not outraged that women have to cover every inch of their bodies,
were you not outraged on Australia day when there in colour the Herald Sun published a picture of a water pipe smoking man in his speedos and his wife sitting beside him, covered up ,the look on her face said it all for me.This was a very distraught woman who didnt look to me like she was enjoying herself to the same extend her husband surely was.Why the hell was he not covered up,after all the hijab applies equally to men and women.Are you not putraged when you go out and see little girls covered from heat to foot,what modesty does a two year old need to protect.So ye I`m outraged that women are fighting everyday in their countries for the freedom we take for granted ,yet in Australia people like you tell them that their culture demands sacrifices they should never be asked to make.
 
visual
I am pleased that there are injustices that outrage you.
But do not confuse some isolated fundamentalist practices which are not condoned in moderate Islamic societies, with more common treatment of women which, incidentally varies considerably from nation to nation and within nations themselves (Nigeria being a good example).
I must say I am far more concerned about the plight of Aboriginal women in Australia than I am for Islamic women anywhere else in the world.
For example, Indigenous women suffer the following:
Cardiovascular diseases at 2.2 times the rate of non-Indigenous women; neoplasms (inc. cancers) at 1.6 times the rate of non-Indigenous women; diseases of respiratory system at 3.6 times the rate of non-Indigenous women; endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases (inc. diabetes) at 10.1 times the rate of non-Indigenous women, and; diseases of the digestive system at 3.4 times the rate of non-Indigenous women.
Such is the plight of Indigenous women that their babies are twice as likely to be born at "low birth weight", and twice as many Indigenous babies die before their first birthday compared to non-Indigenous.
As outrageous as their plight might be, I guess it doesn't grab the attention of the media like a Sharia Law stoning.
 
visual
For the last time; read this or forever hold your peace:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
You and the Snake can keep up your irrational tirade against the Islamic faith for as long as you wish here, but I am moving on.
It is apparent that "outrage" for you both has a very narrow definition and true injustices can be simply brushed aside.
 
rederpb,
are you seriously telling me that a woman who cant access a doctor because of her gender can be compared to a woman who is free to but chooses not to, for whatever reason,yes we can argue about that too.But frankly your ignorance and absurd devotion to defending the indefensible makes me think that you would`nt be all that happy about the Aboriginal woman seeking those services.
And by the way maybe you havent noticed but i do not need you to pray for me or advice me on what i should do, sweety,i do what i like when and if i like ,got that.
 

Hello Rederob:

Your point regarding the statistics which apply to indigenous health are indisputable.

However, should not the indigenous people themselves take at least some responsiblity for these appalling health outcomes on the basis of their general lifestyle, inappropriate diet, lack of exercise etc.

Most of us,if we are at all sensible, and aspire to having a reasonably good standard of health, will take the appropriate measures to ensure we eat sensibly, do not drink to excess, sniff glue, paint and other substances, and engage in purposeful exercise.

The aboriginal population deserves our assistance and support, but I don't feel they, any more than the rest of the population, should expect sympathy if they don't take some responsibility for their own health outcomes.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that there should be the same guidance re health for allof us,irrespective of race, and that is that we shouldn't expect the ailing healthcare system to pick up the pieces all the time when we haven't taken our share of responsibility towards caring for our own health.

Julia
 
Julia
May I put to you a challenge?
I have attached a map link to Aboriginal communities in the Kimberlies: http://www.dia.wa.gov.au/Maps/Files/EKCOMA4.pdf
Make a list of your present weekly grocery shopping and determine its dollar cost. Then go to Balgo (Hills) and try to buy what you normally would with that same dollar amount.
Let's then pretend you live in Yagga Yagga and you take your shoping home. You will of course need a 4wheel drive and be paying almost $2/litre for fuel for the +200km round trip. You get home to Yagga Yagga and discover you have no fridge because you have no electricity.
There goes the shopping you bought, unless you can eat most of it very quickly (assuming you can cook it, of course, in the way you usually would).
In case you get sick, the neares doctor is at Halls Creek, about a 600km drive and a hospital is another 350km up the road.
So here you are now, at home at Yagga Yagga.
Would you like to tell me what job you have there, out of interest?

I don't pretend to have any solutions but I think we are a tad unkind to expect that Aboriginals should take more responsibility for their predicament.
There are Aboriginals living in parts of Australia that many of could not endure for more than a few days, let alone a lifetime.
How would you feel about changing places for a year and letting us know if you were right after all?
Or would you just prefer the initial "shopping" challenge!
 
so according to you Aboriginals would only find out they dont have a fridge after they do the shopping and take it home hmmmmm.

Out of curiousity why would Aborigines who live in such isolated places need to go shopping ,for food that they cant keep long enough to be useful for them.
And presumably the same distances would incovenience white people as black people but they seem to live longer,maybe there another explanation.

 


Yep thats well said !.
Responsibillity is the only way for progress.

Bob.
 
Re Aboriginals:

I'm a bit with rederob on this one. I don't know the answer and I agree with the others as well, that it lies with self responsibility. But I think the answer is also something to do with self determination as well.

Somehow allowing aboriginal law (problematic as this would be) could help.

Trading the US I'm up and see programs that most folks never see because of the time slot. This has certainly given me a different perspective. They really need to stay in tune with there own culture it seems, but whitefella continuously interferes with this and it does their head in. Whitefella wants blackfella to be like whitefella, when really blackfella just wants to be blackfella. (and please, I'm not using the term blackfella in a derogetory sense)

We shouldn't be surprised as our own race behaves similarly under similar circumstances.
 
Wayne
In the early 1960's my father was a teacher at a then remote WA coastal community many hundreds of kilometres north of Geraldton, where you live, I believe. Once a fortnight a truck from Sydney Fong's Geraldon store delivered our groceries and provisions. We had Tilley lamps and hurricane lamps for lighting, a kerosine powered fridge (no "freezer" abilities), a "copper" for washing, 2x5000 gallon rainwater tanks and a brackish bore as water sources. We were one of 5 white families in the town, with the rest of the community being anything from full blood Aboriginal to Aboriginal-Malay extraction (being coastal).
Before leaving my job in the public service in the 1990s I had a brief stint with the now defunct Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission at Townsville, Queensland. I can safely say that the amenities my family enjoyed in the 60s were significantly better than most (but not all) of the remote aboriginal communities in North Queensland in the 90s.

To those people who believe that self determination is the solution for Aboriginal Australians I ask, will you be willing to give up your land so that they can go back to the ways that gave them a traditional lifestyle?
Coastal Australia was most heavily populated, particularly around the rivers and harbours where our capital cities are now built, but do I see a degree of concern amongst Vaucluse residents over this idea! Central Australian Aboriginals were primarily nomadic, but today we ensure that they live in static communities nearby their tribal lands, yet without the capacity to lead their tribal lifestyles.

Bob adds that responsibility is the only way for progress.
How about "opportunity".
As a complete digression, several years ago male suicides in farming districts reached alarming levels. Some families that had worked the land for a century were so debt laden that husbands saw no way out and sadly took their lives in vain. Similarly, a proportion of young men in farming communities saw no future for themselves and did the same thing: Very tragic.

Today I am hoping my prayers for visual will be answered. I know that the Lord works in mysterious ways sometimes, so a good outcome is always possible.
 
And you`ve just demonstrated why santimonious religious zealots like you are on the nose and always will be. And i mean from all religious persuasion, pray all you like you will always be a sanctimonious zealot. OH what will happen if your prayers arent answered should i expect my house to be burned down?

:evilburn:
 

I have no doubt that the word 'black-fella' will offend some 1/4 'aborigine' that drinks latte and wears a beret. This is probably why a real 'black-fella' would point the bone at you if you dare called him 'aborigine'. I have friends from remote indigenous communities that have a very low opinion of tribal law. All of them say that tribal law is just a cop out.

There are no easy answers. There is ample money spent on the problem- remote communties of any persuation just arent feasible of having infrastructure put in. A free private school education certainly did my friends a lot of good. Ive got plenty of jobs for 'black-fella's' picking fruit if they want- no questions asked, aborigine's can submit a resume' with 3 good references.
 
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