National poverty - The new normal?

Greece has turned from a relatively prosperous 1st world country into a grindingly poor nation with seemingly no prospect of recovery. Thoughts ?

Greek debt crisis: ‘People can’t see any light at the end of any tunnel’
The Greek government says the country has turned a corner, but that is not the experience of people on the ground



Greek people queue to enter a soup kitchen run by the Orthodox church in Athens. Photograph: Alkis Konstantinidis/Reuters

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Helena Smith in Athens

Monday 31 July 2017 01.03 AEST Last modified on Monday 31 July 2017 07.56 AEST

“The worst is clearly behind us.” Panaghiota Mourtidou pondered the words with a gravity unusual for the jovial volunteer. Even now, several days after the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, saw fit to use the phrase, she still feels somewhat bewildered. “Politicians clearly have no idea of the reality on the ground,” she said. “If they did, they wouldn’t make such pronouncements because, really, it couldn’t be worse.”

It is four years since the Guardian met Mourtidou packing food boxes at the Solidarity Club which she and other concerned citizens were running out of the local branch of Tsipras’s then radical Syriza party. At the time, the leftist was an ardent fan of the only political force she truly believed could pull Greece from the depths of financial collapse.

Tsipras’s promise to stamp out austerity, his raised fist and fiery rhetoric appealed to her sense of justice. In the summer of 2013 – almost 18 months before assuming power – he was “our big hope, the big promise of better days”.

But the politician’s volte-face, his enactment of some of the most gruelling budget cuts and tax rises since Greece’s great economic crisis began, has driven a wedge through any optimism she may have had.
Today, the Solidarity Club operates not out of the party’s local premises but a former grocery store up the road. Mourtidou now finds herself struggling with sentiments that veer between disappointment and rage.

“Tell me, how can anyone survive on a basic wage of €490 (£438) and still pay all the taxes they have passed?” she asks, stacking rice, pasta and pulses destined for the needy she encounters daily.

“There are 51 families who depend on us, and a lot of them feel desperate. OK, Greece has escaped bankruptcy, it has even dipped its toes in the markets again but, so what if its people have been left bankrupt in the process?”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-cant-see-any-light-at-the-end-of-any-tunnel

We are heading in the same direction. Public and private debt is the only growth industry in this country, and one day it will all come home to roost.

Socialist governments and overly paid public and private service. Coupled with over entitled citizens who think they shouldn't have to pay tax.

Thats what happens when a country gets fat and spoilt and lives beyond its means while not having any real industry to prop it up.

Shorten will run us down the same direction with his populist cr@p.

moXJO said:

Shorten will run us down the same direction with his populist cr@p.

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Shorten is the one who wants to cut back tax dodge 'entitlements' like negative gearing and discretionary trusts.

SirRumpole said:

Shorten is the one who wants to cut back tax dodge 'entitlements' like negative gearing and discretionary trusts.

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Shorten wants everyone to be workers.
Their agenda has always been against small business and small investors. Unions hate smaĺl business. Keep your head down while we milk you dry.

Negative gearing is simply recouping costs on expenses. Same as a business. Trusts loopholes can be tightened up.

Running a platform of "supporting the little guy" then taking away his ability to get ahead.... Fcuking rich.
They don't seem to be throwing many punches at the big guys do they. Maybe the Chinese paid em off enough.

But yep.. lets take away the next generations ability to get ahead by giving it to the government and public service to waste on bureaucratic bs.
How about tackling government waste.


Shorten is a hollow man.

moXJO said:

Socialist governments and overly paid public and private service. Coupled with over entitled citizens who think they shouldn't have to pay tax.

Thats what happens when a country gets fat and spoilt and lives beyond its means while not having any real industry to prop it up.

Shorten will run us down the same direction with his populist cr@p.

Click to expand...

That's a good description of where we are right now.

Past Labor and Coalition governments may well be to blame but it's pretty hard to blame Shorten given that he has never actually been PM.

Smurf1976 said:

That's a good description of where we are right now.

Past Labor and Coalition governments may well be to blame but it's pretty hard to blame Shorten given that he has never actually been PM.

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I'm not sure we could cough up much more tax then we are paying now. Not just the payg but all those other things (rego, licensing etc) that prop up another department.

But fat and spoilt and perhaps stupid is an app description.

Shorten running a populist platform is just more of the same imo. They have coached him to feed the public with the sole intent to win. Albo might have been more believable but its the party factions that rule. And it will be more of the same.
Too many faces from last time.

The rich are getting richer and the poor have nothing.
The divide is extremely unhealthy.

moXJO said:

Shorten is a hollow man.

Click to expand...

I don't think he's any more hollow than Turnbull who said a lot of things but has now been captured by the Liberal Right.

Turnbull's sole economic policy is giving away taxpayer money to corporations and hoping that this trickles down to employment. It's rubbish. Business can produce as much as they like, increasingly with robots or software but unless consumers can afford to buy the stuff they will go bust.

I reckon we are heading towards a recession unless something is done to boost consumer spending, like personal income tax cuts. Corporate tax cuts won't do the job.

SirRumpole said:

I don't think he's any more hollow than Turnbull who said a lot of things but has now been captured by the Liberal Right.

Turnbull's sole economic policy is giving away taxpayer money to corporations and hoping that this trickles down to employment. It's rubbish. Business can produce as much as they like, increasingly with robots or software but unless consumers can afford to buy the stuff they will go bust.

I reckon we are heading towards a recession unless something is done to boost consumer spending, like personal income tax cuts. Corporate tax cuts won't do the job.

Click to expand...

Employment was up last time wasn't it?


Shorten is hollow as he is a party hack being polished up. Albo would compare more to Tbull as they are more on the center of the party.
Both parties suck as both left and right factions squabble and hold sway. Same thing for the greens it appears.

We probably need a recession to reset costs and some slashing and burning through the public service waste. It has a terrible toll on families though.

MrBurns said:

The rich are getting richer and the poor have nothing.
The divide is extremely unhealthy.

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The problem is, the poor haven't seen poor yet, poor can't smoke and drink.
Poor don't get welfare, poor struggle to get enough food to survive on.
We have a long way to go, before you can call anyone in Australia poor, I just hope we don't get there.
Poor here, have limited life choices, but they still get money.

sptrawler said:

Poor here, have limited life choices, but they still get money.

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It's called a safety net, but if they can't afford to buy power or food then their life really is limited.

moXJO said:

Shorten wants everyone to be workers.
Their agenda has always been against small business and small investors. Unions hate smaĺl business. Keep your head down while we milk you dry.

...................

Shorten is a hollow man.

Click to expand...

I'd like to know where you get the data to support your comments.

While it is true the LNP like to expand the list of policies, they are fairly much the same as Labor insofar as recognising about 90% of businesses are "small".

Insofar as unions, well they leave small businesses in the construction, retail, etc alone and concentrate on the big players, insisting on EBAs and worker safety. It's the big business that gets the hard time from the unions, but those same big businesses manage to filter anti labour rhetoric via big media to the man in the street as some kind of small business bogey. The man in the street wearing his LNP lapel pin then spreads the furphy as a truth, proclaiming how unfair a phantom situation is to companies he has no intimate knowledge of.

Tisme said:

It's the big business that gets the hard time from the unions

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Yes, why bother harrassing a business with a couple of employees, it's like a hunter shooting a mouse instead of a bear, no challenge.

SirRumpole said:

It's called a safety net, but if they can't afford to buy power or food then their life really is limited.

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It certainly is, but what scares me is the falling middle class, they are the engine room but they are being flogged to death.
The middle/lower income workers are really being taxed hard, yet it is their spending that makes the economy go around, I think the upper tax rates are going to have to be lifted.
Also I think, someones got to grow a pair and increase the royalties on minerals, currently miners are employing less and less people which translates to less money being circulated.
I think family trusts are a bit like gay marriage, a diversionary tactic, to avoid the real issue the plunge to the "S" bend.

sptrawler said:

The middle/lower income workers are really being taxed hard, yet it is their spending that makes the economy go around, I think the upper tax rates are going to have to be lifted.

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Both the middle and upper income tax rates should be cut, but they would have to be paid for by elimination or cutting back of tax dodges like negative gearing, CGT discounts and superannuation tax concessions that disproportionately favour upper middle income earners.

SirRumpole said:

Both the middle and upper income tax rates should be cut, but they would have to be paid for by elimination or cutting back of tax dodges like negative gearing, CGT discounts and superannuation tax concessions that disproportionately favour upper middle income earners.

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Good points, one thing for sure, welfare isn't going to get cheaper.
I won't be suprised to see your suggestions introduced. I also won't be suprised, to see the way welfare is paid, changed markedly.
No point in just taxing more, when there is no control, on the way it is spent.

SirRumpole said:

It's called a safety net, but if they can't afford to buy power or food then their life really is limited.

Click to expand...

When we change over to a cashless society, which probably won't be too long given the take up of technology in Australia, I wonder if the pension etc will be only available for necessities?

Somewhat like the welfare cards, in certain communities and sectors of society, after all it is supposed to be a safety net not a lifestyle choice.
The problem is no one knows what the end game is.

Tisme said:

I'd like to know where you get the data to support your comments.

While it is true the LNP like to expand the list of policies, they are fairly much the same as Labor insofar as recognising about 90% of businesses are "small".

Insofar as unions, well they leave small businesses in the construction, retail, etc alone and concentrate on the big players, insisting on EBAs and worker safety. It's the big business that gets the hard time from the unions, but those same big businesses manage to filter anti labour rhetoric via big media to the man in the street as some kind of small business bogey. The man in the street wearing his LNP lapel pin then spreads the furphy as a truth, proclaiming how unfair a phantom situation is to companies he has no intimate knowledge of.

Click to expand...

Union officials.
I've had high rankers express it to me a few times.
More members in big business. And they official hate small business and contractors for diluting the big guys profit.

Have knowledge of a few guys in with union officials over workers comp fiasco a few years back where they expressed the same.

Why individually go after the little guy when you can just make him jump through hoops.

Im in construction and its common knowledge that unions will green light union friendly business and make life hard/ impossible for the rest.

Take BER for example. It was the contractors who got screwed. Not the select building companies. All those companies that paid "union training fees"
Aka kickbacks were free to ripoff who they wanted.

moXJO said:

Union officials.
I've had high rankers express it to me a few times.
More members in big business. And they official hate small business and contractors for diluting the big guys profit.

Have knowledge of a few guys in with union officials over workers comp fiasco a few years back where they expressed the same.

Why individually go after the little guy when you can just make him jump through hoops.

Im in construction and its common knowledge that unions will green light union friendly business and make life hard/ impossible for the rest.

Take BER for example. It was the contractors who got screwed. Not the select building companies. All those companies that paid "union training fees"
Aka kickbacks were free to ripoff who they wanted.

Click to expand...

Yes I understand all that, but it's rare for them to go after small business and thus the small business disruption reputation isn't warranted, regardless of their anxiety for closed shop workplaces on larger projects.

If a small business wants to leap into big projects then the EBA will make it a protected business and able to increase its sell price and profit, because that is the playing field.

In some ways it forces a business from being a gutter feeder with skinny margins and lowest price hand to mouth marketing model, into a properly run business with training, plans, profit, organised workforce, etc. The worst part of it is having to answer to an ar5ehole union rep when he feels like revving you up over safety, wages, and closed shop card carriers, but if you get the profit greed under control then it can be a lucrative long term business.

There is a reason the Lend Leases of this world are successful and profitable and it wasn't come about by bad mouthing unions, rather embracing them and partnering with them.