Most who want to get rich or retire wealthy... have got it wrong

[pavilion103]

Being realistic is far more encompassing than just how much time and commitment someone gives something. I could practice batting every afternoon with a cricket stump and a water tank but it's highly unlikely I'd ever play test match cricket. You've got to get lucky in the gene pool as well as having determination to succeed. With $20k you can probably succeed with just commitment but can you do that with $20m or do you need a better edge than just turning up to training?

Agree. I'm talking about someone with 20K.

Anything over that is a I've my head and I can't comment on.

 

[pavilion103]

DID I SAY THEY WERE REASONS NOT TO GET INVOLVED? ffs.

perhaps I actually said





This statement could equally said about many things - Sport, Acting, Arts, Singing, Business ......

There is enormous potential in being VERY good at many things - there are also varying costs of failing to be good enough to make it to the payoff. (time - expenses - opportunity)

Go to my futures threads. Learn how I trade. And do it for yourself.

It would be a good use of your time.

I'd encourage anyone else with small base and an inclination to learn to do the same.

 

[craft]

Go to my futures threads. Learn how I trade. And do it for yourself.

It would be a good use of your time.

I'd encourage anyone else with small base and an inclination to learn to do the same.

You crack me up.

What you aspire too as a yearly income isn't even an average days volatility anymore - the capital has all been accumulated through the markets.

but you make a good point about use of time - I gotta stop wasting mine, here.

 

[Trembling Hand]

but you make a good point about use of time - I gotta stop wasting mine, here.

But Craft that goes both ways. You say you were trying to add some realistic expectations. But for what ever reason you have added a list that is actually incorrect and others have added points that are just dumb. So instead of getting to the meat of the subject that is making some serious capital out of short term trading people have had to waste time and argue about the same old tired lines thrown up about trading,

Compounding - "if that was true you would be richer than Buffet in 2 years"

Zero sum game - "You are playing a game that is stacked against you because you are small"

And other blatantly obvious and well know points.

Then just as a nice sourer you have accused two posters that have put up a lot of info for no return over many years of having ulterior motive.......... How about what the Fuxk back at you????

 

[pavilion103]

You crack me up.

What you aspire too as a yearly income isn't even an average days volatility anymore - the capital has all been accumulated through the markets.

but you make a good point about use of time - I gotta stop wasting mine, here.

You have no idea what I aspire to as a yearly income.

I've set a goal of $50,000 to take a year off work.

What I aspire to as a yearly income is much higher than that (in subsequent years).


I'm not going to argue.

People can go look in my thread and decide whose methodology they want to aspire to. Yours or mine.

Maybe you can even start your own thread and see if you generate any interest.

 

[tech/a]

**** it is hard to make comment sometimes without being ascribed beliefs you don’t hold.

Craft-----read what you've written---then think of me!

I have much more coming but not the time RIGHT now perhaps tonight.

Ill explain the title---from my view when I titled the thread---which I did think about--although it seems I didn't---from you and others view.

And On with the Topic as I meant it to be.

 

[tech/a]

To the topic.

Obviously I hadn't made myself clear.

Hopefully this clears it up.

(1)
I see many beginners come to ASF and many who contact me.
Most want to be able to make as much as they can as quick as they can and they want to know how to do it.With $20k or much less.

(2)
I have many friends who are struggling to freehold their house let alone have enough to retire on.
Many will chew up their super on their mortgage. They started late and finished short. They ALL want to know how to catch up. How do I get rich enough to retire in 10 yrs.

These are the MOST who want to get rich or retire wealthy.

I believe an attitude of I need to get rich OR I need to BE rich/er is wrong!

FOR THESE GUYS!

I believe in THEIR positions---without a large capital base or the time to build one----
they should be looking at making a strong commitment to increasing their income beyond that which they need.
This will do 2 things.

The young guys will get surplus that they can utilize elsewhere.
The older ones will have another income stream that they can supplement their position.

Sure you have to put in the hrs to be proficient---but the rewards are like anything else you put your mind to---you become proficient and can become expert.

I personally have found Index futures to fill the needs.
Lots of very liquid markets.

In particular
HSI
DAX
FTSE

In this timezone.
No reason why other really liquid markets in other time zones wont supply the same.


Best action in the first 1-2 hrs often less and at the last hr.
Even with 1 contract I can have a meaningful return.
An expert (With bigger Kahoonas). who trades 10x what I do would have made $52,000 on my last
weeks trades! Which totaled around 3 hrs!


Next post to some meat on the topic.

 

[burglar]

... They started late and finished short ...

I thought I was in this boat, but as pension age approaches, I find that I will cope!

 

[Wysiwyg]

I thought I was in this boat, but as pension age approaches, I find that I will cope!

Topped up with a few burglaries recently did we? :kiffer:

 

[tech/a]

So my point is that for a few Hrs a night with a solid grounding you can see and trade what some of us here see.

Just with one contract you can make a sound regular difference to your situation.
Sure it takes time to learn but its well worth it.

You'll have it for life!

You'll see opportunity where others see lines.
You'll take trades that others cant see.
You'll keep it to yourself!

I strongly suggest highly liquid markets.
HSI
DAX
FTSE
There are E MINIS in the HSI and FTSE where the tick value is much less than a full contract.

This is Last nights DAX.
I traded the first move and left----------- the rest is what I see on a chart---this chart.



For those of you who prefer real time see THIS THREAD HERE
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26509&page=211

and look to the right of page at the top of the chart above
I bought at 10620




Just pointing it out.
Worth investigating I thought.
Good trading.

Covered at 10640

 

[Nortorious]

So my point is that for a few Hrs a night with a solid grounding you can see and trade what some of us here see.

Just with one contract you can make a sound regular difference to your situation.
Sure it takes time to learn but its well worth it.

You'll have it for life!

You'll see opportunity where others see lines.
You'll take trades that others cant see.
You'll keep it to yourself!

I strongly suggest highly liquid markets.
HSI
DAX
FTSE
There are E MINIS in the HSI and FTSE where the tick value is much less than a full contract.

This is Last nights DAX.
I traded the first move and left----------- the rest is what I see on a chart---this chart.

View attachment 61504

For those of you who prefer real time see THIS THREAD HERE
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26509&page=211

and look to the right of page at the top of the chart above
I bought at 10620


View attachment 61505

Just pointing it out.
Worth investigating I thought.
Good trading.

Covered at 10640

View attachment 61506

Nice posts tech/a and also pav.

I haven't had the opportunity to go through the threads in detail but love the story that you both have been writing. I'm hoping to move into futures at some stage not too far down the track and will hopefully be able to add some value to the threads.

In regards to your other post, I'm one of those young guys that is currently working hard to increase my income to a point where I have a surplus building up, that I can then put to work to build my wealth. It's not going to be an overnight process (it's been about 6 year journey already) but as you say, it's a skill I will have for life... well worth the effort.

 

[Newt]

Definitely an all star thread on the go, which is great to see. Was so happy to see craft back in action but now worried he's gone again. Nooooooooo!

- so much to learn from these forums if people take the time
- it is hard for most people to trade well - you read over and over how to play the instrument, but until you practice/practice/practice you don't really understand or FEEL why expectancy, watching risk, developing technique is so important
- definitely agree when tech says you have to be saving more than you earn to get ahead in life
- agree also that finding compounding investments so important (but not always easy for most people)
- great to hear from a few benefiting from pav's futures thread.

I'm just thankful so many take the time to share some of their knowledge, whether T/A, FA, stocks, futures.
More please......

:drink:

 

[fiftyeight]

I strongly suggest highly liquid markets.
HSI
DAX
FTSE
There are E MINIS in the HSI and FTSE where the tick value is much less than a full contract.

There is a mini FTSE? I cannot find a code.

 

[tech/a]

There is a mini FTSE? I cannot find a code.

Your right
Always thought there was---

 

[skc]

My on this topic.

Tech/a has a fair point. For a person with $20k, a good trader will beat a good investor hands down, over 1-5 years.

However, if we starting dealing with averages... The average trader is a loser, while the average investor earns a market return (less a bit of brokerage), which is positive over most years.

So if you were to take probability into account, the right advice for an average person (who will turn into an average trader or an average investor) is to simply buy an index fund. The probability-weighed outcome favors the investor.

Having said all that... the average trader probably didn't put in enough effort and committment to acquire the skill to succeed. So again, Tech/a has a fair point: put in the effort and committment and the rewards could be substantial... and more substantial than the investing thinking (again, for $20k in capital).

FWIW, I think trading is financially more rewarding than investing (and compounding), up to about $1-3m dollars in capital. The figure varies depending on the strategy and the instrument (probably less in futures). After that, it's unlikely that you can use it all in trading without changing what is probably pretty "retail" strategy that got you there. So it's worthwhile to have an alternate way to deploying the capital. Alternatively, you can go trade someone else's capital and put your own capital in the investing/compounding path earlier.

Craft.. if you are still around this thread. I think you said that you started off trading... At what point did you make the switch? And did you make the switch for the reason above or a different reason?

 

[Newt]

Craft.. if you are still around this thread. I think you said that you started off trading... At what point did you make the switch? And did you make the switch for the reason above or a different reason?

I'd be grateful understand more about this too craft. Would be an insight to know what sort of trading approach you followed, and how that developed into a more quantified analysis/TA approach?

 

[craft]

Craft.. if you are still around this thread. I think you said that you started off trading... At what point did you make the switch? And did you make the switch for the reason above or a different reason?

Hi SKC

Obviously I have seen your post, all of which I agree with. My transformation from trading is generally covered by what you say. I’m reluctant to expand on that here because whilst I may post with the intention of relaying an experience to help it will probably be interpreted as negativity to trading and derail things again – which I don’t want to do.

To not duck the question I will put something in the PVFCF thread.

 

[pavilion103]

Were you successful or unsuccessful when you traded?

Fairly direct question but would give insight...

 

[craft]

Were you successful or unsuccessful when you traded?

Fairly direct question but would give insight...

By the standards some achieve on forums I was crap.

 

[Value Collector]

My on this topic.

Tech/a has a fair point. For a person with $20k, a good trader will beat a good investor hands down, over 1-5 years.

Not sure if I agree with that, a highly skilled investor can generate high returns, that could match or beat a trader.

Traders claiming to get super high returns are often using leveraged instruments, if you factor in using leverage in an investment operation, If that operation goes well the returns will be quite remarkable.

let me give you an example, say an investor has $20,000 to invest. and he wants to leverage his position over two stocks he is comfortable with, we will use 2 stocks I have been involved with in the last 3 years CBA and CZZ (capilano honey).

Say he takes the full $20,000 puts it into CBA 3years ago at $45 / share, he then uses the CBA as collateral on a margin loan and puts $16,000 into Capilano, the CBA dividend more than covers the interest.

After 3 years his CBA has doubled to $92.00 / share, and capilano has gone from $2 to $9.20 + capilano dividends.

CBA- $40,000
CZZ- $73,600
total- $113,000

that's a 565% return in three years and that's not including the surplus dividends and franking credits, on a basic set and forget leveraged investment operation. He could have also built in a few option positions along the way to increase this return also.

Also this positions profits were not taxable along the way until he sells, and when he does sell, he gets a 50% capital gains tax discount.