Most who want to get rich or retire wealthy... have got it wrong

[Value Collector]

Do you mean the average person by the definition of average? (given it's a zero sum activity)

yes I mean the definition of average, I mean trading is not a strategy that can be employed by the masses.

the average person can not be a better than average driver, though if asked, the average person does claim to be better than average.

Would you acknowledge that anyone who committed properly to trading futures and willing to put in the time and effort (like myself and others) can achieve well above average returns

Offcourse, but that's not a strategy I would recommend as a simple thing for savers to do. 99% of people would be better served just taking a buy and hold strategy on a broad cross section of the market, ignoring the ups and downs, and regularly contributing a portion of their earnings to it.

 

[tech/a]

yes I mean the definition of average, I mean trading is not a strategy that can be employed by the masses.

the average person can not be a better than average driver, though if asked, the average person does claim to be better than average.



Offcourse, but that's not a strategy I would recommend as a simple thing for savers to do. 99% of people would be better served just taking a buy and hold strategy on a broad cross section of the market, ignoring the ups and downs, and regularly contributing a portion of their earnings to it.

Your right

BUT

The average person on this forum is already well above the average person in the street.
They have searched out a site which they have an interest in.
These are who PAV and I are talking to.

 

[Value Collector]

Your right

BUT

The average person on this forum is already well above the average person in the street.
They have searched out a site which they have an interest in.
These are who PAV and I are talking to.

They won't be going up against the average person in the street ( unless you mean Wall Street), they will be going up against the average trader, whom generally would have a skill level equal too or higher than the average person on this site.

 

[galumay]

blah, blah, blah...
You guys fly off at a tangent.

Again, i fail to see why you are posting then,

"I have an amazing secret, i can make more money, quicker than the rest of you. I can teach you how to do it to."

blah, blah, blah...

"I am not going to teach you how to do it, its my seekrit!"

 

[pavilion103]

Again, i fail to see why you are posting then,

"I have an amazing secret, i can make more money, quicker than the rest of you. I can teach you how to do it to."

blah, blah, blah...

"I am not going to teach you how to do it, its my seekrit!"

I think you're taking him wrong.

It's more like.... "This is how most think... I'm proposing this alternative (a few hundred to a thousand a week trading futures with a small capital base). Let's discuss it."

 

[pavilion103]

Also that's fairly generic. Not some secret for the exclusive.

 

[tech/a]

Again, i fail to see why you are posting then,

"I have an amazing secret, i can make more money, quicker than the rest of you. I can teach you how to do it to."

blah, blah, blah...

"I am not going to teach you how to do it, its my seekrit!"

Where on earth have I said any of the above.

I've posted an alternate way of looking at the stock market.
Why are you so angry?
There was a reasonable amount of discussion now you've turned the thread into some twisted view of your own to suit your own bias.

 

[galumay]

I think you're taking him wrong.

I am just taking him how i am reading him.

It's more like.... "This is how most think... I'm proposing this alternative (a few hundred to a thousand a week trading futures with a small capital base). Let's discuss it."

Without any detail of what this alternative involves, other than its something he is not going to share, but it works. What are we meant to discuss?

I genuinly cannot see any point to the thread, all i have had revealed is that the secret lies within trading futures.

What are we meant to actually discuss? Anyone posting that trading futures has not historically been a successful way to build wealth for most participants has been dismissed, no details of the strategy will be revealed so we cant discuss them. Questioning the rationale led to me being accused of derailing the thread and being angry - so ad hominem attacks as a response.

I am bemused and confused! I am obviously not welcome in this thread so I will withdraw and move to a sandpit with more friendly kids in it.

 

[futurenow]

Simple: You pick a Market that's open when you want to trade.
New York;London; Futures; ... endless possibilities

Simple.
The thread topic suggests markets are easy to manipulate if you spend a few hours understanding them. Who has the time to research NYSE and FTSE markets ... as well as the ASX? Most 'schmos' have trouble recognising the ASX traders. Throw me a 3 letter acronym from ASX and I might be able to tell who they are, but NY and London is a different story.

International markets are a different kettle of fish.

 

[pixel]

Simple.
The thread topic suggests markets are easy to manipulate if you spend a few hours understanding them. Who has the time to research NYSE and FTSE markets ... as well as the ASX? Most 'schmos' have trouble recognising the ASX traders. Throw me a 3 letter acronym from ASX and I might be able to tell who they are, but NY and London is a different story.

International markets are a different kettle of fish.

It's not only the title of this thread that holds a cue. The OP's name, "tech/a" is the master key.
With Technical Analysis, you don't "research ... markets", but you look at charts: price action, volume, direction. Works the same whether it's RIO.ASX, AAPL.NAS, COPPEV.LME, or CHFEUR.FX.

That aside, tech/a suggests we leave the ruts of conventional much-traveled value investing, and start thinking outside the box. Implying this old tomcat needs to learn some new tricks as well...
Better get cracking then.

And No, galumay: I don't expect to be spoon-fed for free. Enough clues have been provided to let me try find my own "new way". Nobody is obliged to show me how.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Boy am I enjoying this thread. Its been the same for 10 years on ASF. There is a parallel thread that has been running for 2 years explaining exactly what Tech and Pav have been doing with very little capital and very little time.

It seems that none of the guys who pride themselves on investigating value and money making endeavours to invest in have either not been able to understand it or haven't even bothered to have a look. Which I guess is fine.


It would be nice though if when someone doesn't understand they investigate and ask rather than the dumb as bat **** replies,

"If your return was that you would be a billionaire by now". ( who said you can compound to infinity)

"No one can trade 8 hours a night"

"No one makes money trading"

 

[Trembling Hand]

Simple.
The thread topic suggests markets are easy to manipulate if you spend a few hours understanding them. Who has the time to research NYSE and FTSE markets ... as well as the ASX? Most 'schmos' have trouble recognising the ASX traders. Throw me a 3 letter acronym from ASX and I might be able to tell who they are, but NY and London is a different story.

International markets are a different kettle of fish.

It's not only the title of this thread that holds a cue. The OP's name, "tech/a" is the master key.
With Technical Analysis, you don't "research ... markets", but you look at charts: price action, volume, direction. Works the same whether it's RIO.ASX, AAPL.NAS, COPPEV.LME, or CHFEUR.FX.

Pixel it isn't even that hard. You pick 1 futures instrument and trade it every day for a few hours. For a young open minded guy that is an easy hobby that could turn their life.

 

[CanOz]

Interesting discussion indeed...

Say you already had the wealth from years of hard work and some luck along the way. You wanted to move to a large Australian city and invest in your own home, a couple of other properties and use you equity trading skills learned over the years and the wealth created by that to change your lifestyle, work to live, enjoy your work kind of thing. Say in this example you had between 3-4 million AUD. Say for this example you were my age, call it 50. You want to create lasting income, a business with a secure asset base for the long term. A portion to be used as 'risk capital', how much? What would the traders here do? What would the fundy guys here do (we have some great ones)?

Would you buy a business from a broker, a franchise? Would start your own trading business? Would you just trade a portion in International markets EOD or futures, or would you be seriously conservative, cash and bonds? Would you invest in divy paying good quality business's with a great future?

Cheers,


CanOz

 

[pavilion103]

I am just taking him how i am reading him.



Without any detail of what this alternative involves, other than its something he is not going to share, but it works. What are we meant to discuss?

I genuinly cannot see any point to the thread, all i have had revealed is that the secret lies within trading futures.

What are we meant to actually discuss? Anyone posting that trading futures has not historically been a successful way to build wealth for most participants has been dismissed, no details of the strategy will be revealed so we cant discuss them. Questioning the rationale led to me being accused of derailing the thread and being angry - so ad hominem attacks as a response.

I am bemused and confused! I am obviously not welcome in this thread so I will withdraw and move to a sandpit with more friendly kids in it.

Have you looked in the "Transition to Futures Thread"?

This almighty and all-powerful secret is in there

 

[Value Collector]

So Im 25 I have $20k so I can set and forget for $2000 a year
OR


.

Yes, and it will compound, give you an almost guaranteed good result if your time frame is long enough to smooth over short term market gyrations. Also offcourse I would suggest you have a savings plan to make regular contributions to the scheme.

Little skill or effort is needed, which is exactly what 99% of people plan to commit to their investment operation.

(But that's not what I do, But it is what I suggest people do, if they don't want to dedicate the time and effort to becoming a professional investor or trader, it is how I have my super set up though)

Alternately I can learn how to trade/Fish and with the same $20K earn $300 to $say $2000 a week if I'm really good.

Yes, that would be possible for some, others would lose a chunk of their capital trying to achieve that result.

 

[pavilion103]

Yes, and it will compound, give you an almost guaranteed good result if your time frame is long enough to smooth over short term market gyrations. Also offcourse I would suggest you have a savings plan to make regular contributions to the scheme.

Little skill or effort is needed, which is exactly what 99% of people plan to commit to their investment operation.

(But that's not what I do, But it is what I suggest people do, if they don't want to dedicate the time and effort to becoming a professional investor or trader, it is how I have my super set up though)



Yes, that would be possible for some, others would lose a chunk of their capital trying to achieve that result.

Yeh. It basically comes down to whether you have the time or inclination to learn it.

If so then the possibility to make the money that Tech is talking about is there.

If not then take your standard return and you don't have the spend the time learning the other stuff

 

[Value Collector]

Yeh. It basically comes down to whether you have the time or inclination to learn it.

If so then the possibility to make the money that Tech is talking about is there.

It's always going to come down to the skilful and lucky, funding their outperformance at the expense of the people lower on the skill and luck curve.

For people to be outperforming the market (especially by large amounts) there has to be a larger number of people under performing it.

So the majority of people that try, will fail. If the group as a whole all decide to learn certain techniques to increase their earnings, these techniques will cease to be effective.

 

[pavilion103]

It's always going to come down to the skilful and lucky, funding their outperformance at the expense of the people lower on the skill and luck curve.

For people to be outperforming the market (especially by large amounts) there has to be a larger number of people under performing it.

So the majority of people that try, will fail. If the group as a whole all decide to learn certain techniques to increase their earnings, these techniques will cease to be effective.

Yes that is correct.
Any one individual can achieve greatness in the market.
But overall the masses will not.
Whether it's investing in shares, whatever most people in any field generally are not willing to put in the work required to become good at something. They will "chance their arm" hoping to make money, but almost certainly throwing it away when they come up against those who have bothered to put in the time and effort.

Some will get lucky during times of extraordinary opportunity but it will have nothing to do with their ability and diligence but rather lucky timing.

 

[Toyota Lexcen]

I do I know a few actually, they bought CBA shares when it float NEVER sell a single share even today
at $90, they also bought CSL and Telstra and never sold a single share with all the up and down.

They also bought into Medibank recently...they just ignore the blah blah of macro talk and the next prediction etc...

Their portfolio is truly multi millions with dividend in their hundred of thousands for doing nothing for the last 30 years with very little invested capital ....

then their kids get into the act, they too early for CSL and CBA but they bought TLS and held have not sold, they now bought in MPL and I am pretty sure they buy a few more in the next 30-40 years.

what has happened during those years? dot com bust, Asian crisis, 1988 melt down, GFC, Russian and countless other countries default etc.

The things I take away from this is, good business will keep on delivering regardless of macro, it may have a temporary set back but over a long period of time it will deliver you the dividend and the capital grow.

How else the billionaire get their billions? from their business dividend and the value of their business worth much more over time.

great post, start early, property or shares, save save invest etc, i look at couple that I have bought and sold and would of been far better just sitting with the market

dividend re-investment plan a bonus too if you dont need the yield cheque

 

[Value Collector]

Yes that is correct.
Any one individual can achieve greatness in the market.
But overall the masses will not.
Whether it's investing in shares, whatever most people in any field generally are not willing to put in the work required to become good at something. They will "chance their arm" hoping to make money, but almost certainly throwing it away when they come up against those who have bothered to put in the time and effort.

Some will get lucky during times of extraordinary opportunity but it will have nothing to do with their ability and diligence but rather lucky timing.

Yes, that's why when people ask me what they should do with their money (normally they are asking because they know I don't have to work a job anymore, and have set my family up comfortably) I suggest they take the safe route of dollar cost averaging into an index fund, at least until they have put in a lot of work to learn how and why markets work. At least I know that way they will get a good result over time, I feel suggesting anything else to people who don't have the skill would be like feeding them to the wolves, over the years I have learned they don't want a long complex answer about building a sound investment operation, they generally want a tip, the best tip I can give that sort of person is an index fund.