Late night violence around pubs/clubs

[Smurf1976]

Without any disrespect intended - most of you are grasping at straws with little current real life experience or research.

I can speak with authority on the issue because I work in the security arena in a hotel. Plus I researched the role of security in hotels (bouncers) before becoming one.



This is the most important aspect of the issue. Drinking in moderation turns normal people in relaxed normal people. Increasing that intoxication - as I have noticed - takes people down one of two tracks; they either become very happy friendly drunks (the majority) or they become aggressive violent drunks.

In the hotel where I work, the instant we notice a person becoming the later, they are given free water only or offered the door BEFORE it becomes a problem. That is the responsible service of alcohol in action and has made our hotel one of the safest around.

Nearby is a club where they are not so strict on service and they have plenty of problems - to the point where their license is under review.

I'm starting to seriously think that the best "answer" is to do nothing. Just stand aside and let the clubs attracting attention lose their license. Whoever opens up in their place will hopefully take the hint and be a bit more cautious in their service of alcohol.

That said, the club involved with the following link is the oldest operating nightclub in Hobart. Indeed it's the only one that's been around more than a decade. It's a more hard core "music" (DJ) type of place and not really a mainstream venue full of 18 year olds getting drunk. Still having troubles though. The location in Salamanca = the waterfront. Part of the same place.

The person concerned needs to literally learn to speak properly again - it was a serious blow to the head.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/10/2135618.htm

 

[insider]

Ive been in clubs many a time where everyone is poping eggs and their still violent.Its not drugs its not alcohol its just D*ckheads that get more balls after they use either.

I'll side with this comment... They're DlCKS when they walk in and they're DlCKS when they walk out... Being drunk is nothing more than a convenient excuse IMO... I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing when I've had far too many drinkies... That said, when I'm hitting on your girlfriends i'm really doing it... hehehe In fact you should just lock up your girlfriends and throw away the key....

 

[Happy]

Making regulations, taking license away is all crap.
What happened to individual’s responsibility?

How about throwing out troublemakers, marking them, if they beat the system throw them to jail for a year or two, until they get the message.
(Use technology, fingerprint club entry, employ face recognition cameras)

Like stupid humps, that wreck every car just to stop few idiots who fly through them in stolen car anyway.

All the current methods to reduce misbehaviour miss the real point they beat about the bush while troublemakers find all the excuses to do the same thing, until they are bored and move to other things.

 

[Smurf1976]

Interesting situation in Newcastle featured on the 7:30 Report tonight.

In short, lots of strife on the streets and all sounds very familiar. The proposed "solution" being midnight closing of all pubs and clubs.

Just one problem. As the footage showed, the problem clearly at least partly relates to drinking on the street and otherwise outside of, not in, pubs and clubs.

Since nightclubs especially don't generally sell take away alcohol (at least not in most places, I assume it's the same in Newcastle) this would seem to be a case of shooting at the wrong target. Closing the bottle shops at 6pm (and having far fewer of them) might help but closing clubs won't stop one single person either drinking on the street or going out after already having got themselves drunk first at home (since that is cheaper).

Only real outcome I can see is it will disperse the problem from the Newcastle city centre and push it out into the suburbs instead. Total alcohol consumption will probably go up, not down, since BYO is an awful lot cheaper than drinking in a club. And of course there are no bouncers or indeed any form of security at your average house party.

You won't stop people drinking. Some might like the idea but there's more chance of me landing on Mars than that actually happening any time soon. So putting the drinkers, young ones included, inside the clubs under proper supervision would make a lot more sense to me than forcing the whole lot out on the streets at midnight (noting that many will be pretty angry at this - a sure fire recipe for trouble).

 

[xyzedarteerf]

I reckon it could be de-sensitization to violence - look at popular movies like Hostel, Saw etc: they are pr0n for sadists. I don't mind violent movies when it isn't gratuitous but some of these flicks are sickening.

I have to agree with this, every other new release dvd almost always include violent deaths and in most instances there is no need for such scenes in the story line. TV is the same shows like CSI Law and Order etc..etc..to me glamorizes crime and criminals.

 

[Smurf1976]

Can anyone comment on how much trouble there is in Adelaide, particularly Hindley Street?

My perception is that there is relatively less trouble there than in comparable situations interstate and I'm trying to work out (1) if that's correct and (2) if so then why.

 

[arae]

It's not the internet, mobile phones and excessively violent video games and movies.

My home is Jakarta and all of the youth in Indonesia are exposed to the same things, but to an even greater extent. Jakarta people also know how to party and the bar/club scene dwarfs that of any Australian city.

Yet, the violence doesn't exist.

People are calm and respectful.

Why is it I can safely walk the streets of an impoverished city of 20 million people at 3am? Yet, not do the same in a more 'developed' nation?

I agree with those that put it down to a lack of respect.

Indonesian youth, as with other asian cultures have a strong respect for their elders and teachers. Australian culture has lost this form of respect. I'm a teacher, so have experienced this first hand. It's also this lack of respect that contributes to keeping me from returning to Australia.

Just my point of view.

 

[Stan 101]

Some great points, Arae.
Maybe it's lack of self respect as well as respect of others.


I went out last night to see a band in Townsville. As I was flying solo I rode the bike in for easy parking. I figured the band would kick off about 11.30pm so I got there just after 11pm. What was apparent within seconds was the amount of aggression. The security staff were all on edge. I waited in line for a light beer to sip on during the gig and was just waiting for some sort of trouble to start.
It certainly seemed the young girls were the really rude aggressive ones. I've come to the conclusion I am now officially old. Maybe it was always this way?


On a tangent, it was very suprising and disturbing to see the amount of tattoos on peoples faces and neck regions. Is this just fashion now? Twas once a correlation between tattoos above the neckline and mental instability IIRC.

 

[rustyheela]

crystal meth n other "speed related" chemical drugs - pure and simple. ask anyone who works Accident & emergency / triage on any weekend after midnight.

 

[pedro64]

I say a lack of respect.

 

[Wysiwyg]

My last venture into the city at night via cab was scary too.Driving along Ann street in the cab and this bloke walks out in front of the cab to stop it with hands raised.I thought what a d.h. and the cabbie had no choice but to stop.The young man approached the cabbie and demanded he be taken in the cab and quickly jumped in the back seat.It was then i noticed he had the biggest shiner but that was enough for me, rounded up the cab fee and alighted from the vehicle in the middle of the street.

So here i am walking the final 1 kilometer to destination and the cab scene had me on edge.I approached a group of youths (me on high alert) that were blocking the pavement.They were loud and play fighting each other but there were respectable people within 20 meters so i proceeded to pass them at which time they went quiet.I felt at any moment in that time it was going to be on for young and old but they parted and allowed me through.

If you are alone it is like in the wild i suppose with hyaenas etc. that the single or lone animal is the easier target.Impinging on someone elses life seems to an acceptable practice in Australian society.Bad move son.


Good post arae.

 

[tigerboi]

My last venture into the city at night via cab was scary too.Driving along Ann street in the cab and this bloke walks out in front of the cab to stop it with hands raised.I thought what a d.h. and the cabbie had no choice but to stop.The young man approached the cabbie and demanded he be taken in the cab and quickly jumped in the back seat.It was then i noticed he had the biggest shiner but that was enough for me, rounded up the cab fee and alighted from the vehicle in the middle of the street.

So here i am walking the final 1 kilometer to destination and the cab scene had me on edge.I approached a group of youths (me on high alert) that were blocking the pavement.They were loud and play fighting each other but there were respectable people within 20 meters so i proceeded to pass them at which time they went quiet.I felt at any moment in that time it was going to be on for young and old but they parted and allowed me through.

If you are alone it is like in the wild i suppose with hyaenas etc. that the single or lone animal is the easier target.Impinging on someone elses life seems to an acceptable practice in Australian society.Bad move son.


Good post arae.

Hey wysiwyg old mate if you ever get in a stink dont be scared otherwise these pea hearts in packs will give it to you,fight fire with fire & you will come out better than not having a go,like any animal they go for the vunerable & weak,you stand up & you will be ok,but you cower then they get you on the deck??its all over red rover. 1 jump on your head,a slipper in the melon, you got yourself dead or a vege for life...you hear it every weekend...give it to the biggest mouth & youll be ok...the demon drink!! think of all the dead,in jail,broken marriages.etc,etc....tb

or i can get my mate to hang with you on the turps,he dont drink but i reckon he could give to all those in the bad haircut gang...

 

[tigerboi]

Some great points, Arae.
Maybe it's lack of self respect as well as respect of others.


I went out last night to see a band in Townsville. As I was flying solo I rode the bike in for easy parking. I figured the band would kick off about 11.30pm so I got there just after 11pm. What was apparent within seconds was the amount of aggression. The security staff were all on edge. I waited in line for a light beer to sip on during the gig and was just waiting for some sort of trouble to start.
It certainly seemed the young girls were the really rude aggressive ones. I've come to the conclusion I am now officially old. Maybe it was always this way?




On a tangent, it was very suprising and disturbing to see the amount of tattoos on peoples faces and neck regions. Is this just fashion now? Twas once a correlation between tattoos above the neckline and mental instability IIRC.

tattoos????dont you mean constant masturbation????best be cutting back to 6 a day!!tb

 

[Trader Paul]

My involvement in this is not at an official level, more that of an interested person.

The underlying reasons for my concern are several:

1. Impact on those innocent people bashed for no apparent reason.

2. That the majority of non-violent people will be disadvantaged unfairly if the only solution is to shut everything down.

3. The economic impact.

3.1 Tas has an historic problem economically with people leaving around their late teens.

3.2 Tourism. Turning Hobart into a city that's completely dead at night will only revive the pre-2000's stereotype that "it could be worse, we could be in Hobart" and "nothing ever happens in Tas, it's soooo boring".

As for my own views on the cause:

First thing I think has been done wrong is to cram practically everything into the one spot.

Also there's the point that Gatecrasher was in the same street as the main city police station. Wrest Point has plenty of its own security being a casino. And Surreal was on a very busy road between the CBD and the casino. So lots of police / security around all of them without any special effort being needed.


Problem number two IMO is that following the highly controversial demise of Club Surreal following a fairly major battle with surrounding residents, other club owners feel a sense of doom.

Problem number three IMO is lack of capacity. We've replaced the bigger clubs with capacity 1200 - 1500 with smaller venues half that size or less. End result is not everyone can get in.

Also the quality. We've replaced award winning venues with clubs that were never actually completed to original specification. Quality out, cheap and nasty in.

A 3am lockout, whilst well intentioned, combined with smoke free laws has compounded the capacity problem. The great rush to get back in by 3am and of course no going out for food, to smoke etc afterwards unless you're going home.

But if you are going home then it's either join the taxi queue or walk. Public transport basically doesn't exist at that time of night

And number four. The other big one that I'm really not sure of the impact. It was this one that lead me to leave the question "open" here and just see if it came up. Illegal drugs. 10 years ago it was pretty uncommon to come across anyone here on drugs, especially anything harder than home grown dope.

What impact the drugs have on violence is something I really don't know. But I do know that it is the most blatantly obvious thing that "changed" in recent times. It's gone from unusual to mainstream amongst the clubbing age group.

My real question though is whether or not there is a viable solution?

1am closing is being proposed by some but I'm not convinced.

Also it means an awful lot of people kicked out onto the streets all at once with nowhere to go and no viable means of getting home in reasonable time. The problems have always peaked around kick out time as it is, and that's with many having left earlier.

So I really don't know. I'm starting to think that just standing back, watching the whole waterfront clubs thing implode and that then ending up with some new, more geographically dispersed clubs opening might be the best solution after all since it at least disperses the people. ???

Hi Smurf,

It is really interesting, that you have started this thread right now, as
here in Perth, we have a similar problem in Northbridge, except that it is
is probably on a bigger scale.

Up front, my own involvement is BOTH at ground zero and also in picking
up the pieces of the broken lives, that gravitate to Northbridge and its
immediate environs.

As far as the innocent and tourists are concerned ... most people going for
dinner or drinks, at the more respectable restaurants or bars have usually
left Northbridge by midnight ... after that, the nightclubs come to life and
the whole scene changes, dramatically.

People coming into Northbridge after 11 pm include:

1. Angry people looking for a fight.

2. Drug dealers and their customers

3. Binge drinkers find the night clubs willing suppliers of alcohol, in huge
quantities.

4. Large numbers of "lost" young men and women, with no real direction,
making themselves available as prostitutes, in order to pay for drugs.

Now, every major city has similar crowded areas ..... this makes the
surveillance by camera, much easier ..... Perth CBD has more than
250 cameras monitoring hotspots, today. Policing is also much less
fragmented, if the hotspots are contained in a tight area, like Northbridge,
by council licensing requirements.

With regard to alcohol, there's 80 major liquor outlets, within one square
kilometre, including Northbridge.

Now, after 2-3 hours drinking, the fights start to erupt around 2-3am
and the police and various other agencies also swing into action.

These include:

Police
Local council rangers.
Nyoongar patrol to handle indegenous people
Hospital Chaplains and pastoral care practitioners.
Drug Arm and other drug agencies, with street patrols.
Needle exchanges.
Council-sponsored patrol to issue "safe-packs" to street-walkers.
First-aiders
Street youth workers
Ambulance drivers
Taxi drivers
Soup kitchen and coffeshop volunteers.

Gundini also mentioned the importance of Christian Youth Groups
and he may also be able to confirm the valuable contribution,
that the Street Chaplains make in Brisbane.

In fact, here in Perth, we are working on a new Street Chaplains team to
cover hotspots, like Northbridge and Scarborough, more thoroughly.

Street chaplains work closely with the police, dealing with people in
crisis, while releasing police resources for other tasks.

Street chaplains are usually trained in First Aid and are most often found
working on practical solutions, covering:

• Crisis care
• one-to-one counselling
• walking, talking and listening with the lonely
• ministering to the street walkers
• assisting young people from other, foreign cultures

-----

Regarding economics of these hotspots, many of the nightclubs have
close links to organised crime and they must be located close to other
nightclubs, to effectively compete for the alcohol and drug dollars.

Some security guards and nightclub bouncers are employed simply to sell
large quantities of drugs to nightclub patrons !~!

-----

As a drug and alcohol counsellor, the aftermath of an extended encounter
in the Northbridge nightclub scene is graphic reminder of how the power
of parents has been eroded, in favour of child protection.

That leads to lack of respect and an "untouchables" attitude by the
X and Y generations, towards anybody in authority ... police, especially !~!

..... and we haven't even mentioned anything about the impact of
specific illicit drugs, on Northbridge.

More later.

happy days.

paul

 

[tigerboi]

Good post trader paul,its all the demon drink here in sydney in the city its real bad with numbskull 2 pot screamers wanting to fight everyone,just recently we had jarred hayne shot at in the cross,the numnut footballers of any code really still havent awoken to the fact,when they go out they have a big bullseye on them with every cheap shot merchant looking to land one on their chin to impress their mates,dickwads...their should be no drink served after 1am anywhere,national hours,but the hotel lobby with their poker machine dollars wield huge influence,the first rule should be if you got a mongrel haircut you should not be allowed in nsw...

 

[Smurf1976]

:their should be no drink served after 1am anywhere

OK, but a question (not trying to shoot you down, just trying to get to the bottom of the issue).

Why didn't we have anywhere near as much trouble 10 or 15 years ago? We had nightclubs open to 5am etc but only recently has it become this bad. What's changed that makes serving alcohol after 1am a problem now?

 

[Smurf1976]

It's not the internet, mobile phones and excessively violent video games and movies.

My home is Jakarta and all of the youth in Indonesia are exposed to the same things, but to an even greater extent. Jakarta people also know how to party and the bar/club scene dwarfs that of any Australian city.

Yet, the violence doesn't exist.

People are calm and respectful.

Why is it I can safely walk the streets of an impoverished city of 20 million people at 3am? Yet, not do the same in a more 'developed' nation?

I agree with those that put it down to a lack of respect.

Indonesian youth, as with other asian cultures have a strong respect for their elders and teachers. Australian culture has lost this form of respect. I'm a teacher, so have experienced this first hand. It's also this lack of respect that contributes to keeping me from returning to Australia.

Just my point of view.

Good post, very interesting. Would I be right in assuming that fewer people also use drugs due to more strict law enforcement than we have in Australia?

 

[moXJO]

OK, but a question (not trying to shoot you down, just trying to get to the bottom of the issue).

Why didn't we have anywhere near as much trouble 10 or 15 years ago? We had nightclubs open to 5am etc but only recently has it become this bad. What's changed that makes serving alcohol after 1am a problem now?

RSA, maybe they are throwing people out before they are so pissed they are a drink away from being comatose. Those premixed drinks often have funny results on people’s behaviors as well if you mix them with the different spirits.

Still I think its peoples attitudes.I seem to remember it being pretty violent 10 - 15 years ago but it was mainly in the pub back then.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hell I saw the worst fight I've ever seen 30 years ago. - pub in Sydney. The sort of fight you just didn't see in the country. 6 against one.

A gang of sober blokes dressed in black arrived just before closing time - steel capped boots etc - intent on causing trouble - having a fight. - Picked out some fellow to be "victim for the night" who was just defending his girlfriend. He ended up unconscious with multiple kicks to the head. Me too lol - (unconscoius for a while anyway) ended up in the parking lane of the street after I told them "I hope for your sake he dies"! - trying to make em see reason! - the parked cars (partly) around me protected me from kicks to the head at least - lucky I wasn't run over.

I hope he didn't get too much brain damage
Sickening.

Have things got worse? - yes and no. Lots of gangs in Sydney for instance . All sorts of illogical fights.

 

[Trader Paul]

Why didn't we have anywhere near as much trouble 10 or 15 years ago? We had nightclubs open to 5am etc but only recently has it become this bad. What's changed that makes serving alcohol after 1am a problem now?

Hi Smurf,

..... biggest difference between then and now is organised crime in the
nightclub industry, pushing a lot more illegal drugs and alcohol, through
those venues ..... that, makes it BIG business and everybody wants their
slice of the take, by whatever means ... !~!

have a great day

paul



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