Late night violence around pubs/clubs

[Gundini]

The reason we are seeing this behaviour increase is, yes, alcohol, but as has been mentioned, it has been around for ever, but the violence is increasing.

In my day, and I am 45, my Mother used to say to me, "wait til your Father get's home," and we would turn into little lambs. Then, Dad would walk in the door, tired from his work, and have to cop a barrage of this upset, crying, crazy woman. Then, out would come the belt, a couple of whacks on the ass, the manditory banning from everything good for a month, and sent to the room. We smoked the odd dope, but that was about it. We learnt to respect our elders and authority.

Nowdays, it is alot different. You try to dissapline your kids, they warn you not to touch them or they will call child services, tell you to get stuffed, and walk out the door, or worse like take a swing at you. They smoke hydro dope, gravitate to speed, ekkies, then ice, and GBH. These kids grow up to be unrespectful of society, painting our cities in grafiti, raping woman, and taking a swing at cops, (Would you have ever considered any of these things)

These kids are now grown ups, born from the 80's onwards, and these violent attacks occur in this age group. For those of you that fit this age group, I commend you for not becoming a scurge on our society. Your parents have givin you great guidence, or you have learnt respect in other ways, and join us on this forum in a productive manor, well done!

But, in essence, I believe lack of parental control, and influence, added to the increase in drugs that tend to aggression, coupled with booze, is a toxic cocktail that leads to late night violence around pubs and clubs.

 

[trinity]

what are your suggested ways to combat the predicament? Are the younger generation not being taught well enough about respect? From who should this come from? the parents who are too busy buying bigger houses and bigger cars?

( just throwing ideas around ... )

 

[trinity]

Gundini, mate, i totally agree with you!

 

[surfingman]

what are your suggested ways to combat the predicament? Are the younger generation not being taught well enough about respect? From who should this come from? the parents who are too busy buying bigger houses and bigger cars?

( just throwing ideas around ... )

Laws which impose a serious penalty for repeat violent offenders would be a good start in my opinion. Not a slap on the wrist and/or a fine.

I don't think it's a matter of respect or drugs, It has alot too do with the tough guy attitude that no one can touch me (I come from a fairly rough area when growing up), the law is not working the way it is designed too.

I think alcohol is served to excess in far too many places, not too mention the mixes being served Jager Bombs come to mind, alcohol is a huge contributor to the problem I have seen it many times, drugs may have a small impact but only select few could be the cause.

 

[doctorj]

Nowdays, it is alot different. You try to dissapline your kids, they warn you not to touch them or they will call child services, tell you to get stuffed, and walk out the door, or worse like take a swing at you. They smoke hydro dope, gravitate to speed, ekkies, then ice, and GBH. These kids grow up to be unrespectful of society, painting our cities in grafiti, raping woman, and taking a swing at cops, (Would you have ever considered any of these things)

I suspect this is in part true. The information world we live in does a lot to empower kids (for good and bad).

I also believe a part of the problem is a result of many parents not taking responsibility for their parenting. To my mind, the proposed manadatory internet censorship is a prime example of this. Some parents simply don't want to take responsibility for what their kids do.

I don't think it's as bad as you make out though - I'm sure the young people that cause the problems are but a minority.

 

[Gundini]

what are your suggested ways to combat the predicament? Are the younger generation not being taught well enough about respect? From who should this come from? the parents who are too busy buying bigger houses and bigger cars?

( just throwing ideas around ... )

I don't have the answers trinity, but I do know that it used to start at school. I had my fair share of the straps and canes at school, and it tended to learn me good! I wasn't a bad kid, just went off track a few times and they belted me back into line. So did my parents. Kids these days run amuck in school, no respect for the teachers, forming gangs, selling drugs, and that's if they even show up.

The do-gooders wrecked this world, and I don't know how to fix it, sadly...

 

[wayneL]

A couple more ideas:

* Deteriorating Diet. A pretty strong link between crap food and additives has been established in infant and child behaviour. Also a line drawn under diet and death row inmates in another thread.

* Rising Depression. Happy people don't tend to punch people's teeth out. Though depression is symptomatic of other things... diet, alchohol use, money issues, marketing (yep), etc.

Food for thought

Edit to add: Above combined with alchohol of course.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Many forms of nature is violent (attack, defence) Through evolution, humans have developed control of action through thinking.Is it not when someone loses control of thinking that violence/aggression occurs?
Violence is the desire of the aggressor before drinking alcohol!!

Yes, because of conscience and laws it is desirable to control thinking (chatterbox to a certain degree) to be accepted in the group and extend ones life expectancy.(many killers say `a voice told them to do it`)

Don`t know the reason for increased violence but as suggested in other posts, patterning of violence/aggression might be the reason.


Example .... "i have a strong desire to kill that person near my children"
Reasoning .... "that person won`t harm my offspring and if i kill that person i will experience pain and restriction to my life"

 

[insider]

So why it it only happening outside pubs and clubs... where they happen to serve alcohol.

It's not happening outside the local vegetarian restaurant or copy shop, is it?

pub... club... pub... club... pub... club... what is the one common factor here?

Come on people... it doesn't take a genius to work it out, surely?

Because they get kicked out... Honestly I haven't seen a bar fight or any thing past 10pm... The only fights I've seen were between 16 year olds at High Point Shopping center on the school Holidays... No alcohol there... Fights are between people who have something to prove, things like they don't have one inch willies or one is tougher than the other, or you didn't look at him right, or some pathetic guys do it because of the chix... Again nothing serious...

As someone said before it is A LACK OF RESPECT... and more so A LACK OF RESPECT FOR AUTHORITY...

 

[insider]

The sad truth is this people... It is all about up bringing... but guess what??? kids didn't change, Parents changed!!!

 

[Gundini]

The sad truth is this people... It is all about up bringing... but guess what??? kids didn't change, Parents changed!!!

You are right on track there, but I think more the powers of authority changed from Parents to Big Brother. Let's face it, minoritys have ruled for quite some time now, but I think society is starting to wake up!

PS: one inch willies, now I understand why they are so upset! Roflmao

 

[Gundini]

I just thought of one possible help with the next generation at least.

Youth Groups...

Ok, most of them are Religious based, but that's not a bad idea. I wouldn't say I'm practicing, but I am a Christian and I have respect.

Youth Groups give the adolesence some guidence they can understand, under the supervision of adults. This is good, because it makes responsible behaviour desirable! My son (13) goes to one, and they go to camp, have discos amongst the group, and generally find the goodness in themselves and others. The age group varies between 13 to 22......

 

[grubadoo]

I have seen allot of changes in the late night social scene on the Gold Coast, and there is one thing I would love to see if and when I did go out. A quality live band or some form of entertainment at a venue that didn't cost a third of a 18 -25 year olds salary. Bring back the Playroom.

 

[Smurf1976]

Thanks everyone for your comments. All very interesting.

My involvement in this is not at an official level, more that of an interested person.

The underlying reasons for my concern are several:

1. Impact on those innocent people bashed for no apparent reason.

2. That the majority of non-violent people will be disadvantaged unfairly if the only solution is to shut everything down. It's a bit like banning cars in order to get a few idiot drivers off the road. Sure, it cuts the toll but only at a high price to the rest of society.

3. The economic impact.

3.1 Tas has an historic problem economically with people leaving around their late teens. Whilst this is offset somewhat by retirees etc moving to the state, it's economically not good (considering the skills shortage etc) to be replacing productive future workers with retirees. No offence intended there, just a cold, hard observation on economics - worst case we won't have anyone to provide the services the older generations expect anyway.

3.2 Tourism. Turning Hobart into a city that's completely dead at night will only revive the pre-2000's stereotype that "it could be worse, we could be in Hobart" and "nothing ever happens in Tas, it's soooo boring". I've actually heard those words from people walking down the street in other parts of Australia more than once. On the other hand, if it's not safe at night in the city's premier tourist precinct then that too won't be good for business.

As for my own views on the cause:

First thing I think has been done wrong is to cram practically everything into the one spot. In the late 1990's before the trouble started the dominant nightclubs were Cadillac / Gatecrasher (capacity 1500, CBD location), Club Surreal (capacity 1200, about 1km from the waterfront) and Regines (at Wrest Point casino, well away from the waterfront). ALL of those have since closed for various reasons.

Also there's the point that Gatecrasher was in the same street as the main city police station. Wrest Point has plenty of its own security being a casino. And Surreal was on a very busy road between the CBD and the casino. So lots of police / security around all of them without any special effort being needed.

Now it's basically the waterfront and not much else apart from a bit that's starting to open in the CBD. So the effect is to cram everything into one spot. And it's a spot with plenty of trees, the parliament and Salamanca lawns, very old buildings (circa 1800) all of which makes for lots of dark, difficult to see spots that aren't easily illuminated or covered by cameras etc.

Problem number two IMO is that following the highly controversial demise of Club Surreal following a fairly major battle with surrounding residents, other club owners feel a sense of doom. That is, they consider themselves stuffed in the long term anyway so might as well flog it for all they can while they can. In other words, sell as much booze as possible and to hell with the consequences. They'll be out of business in the long term anyway so might as well maximise profit until the inevitable happens.

Problem number three IMO is lack of capacity. We've replaced the bigger clubs with capacity 1200 - 1500 with smaller venues half that size or less. End result is not everyone can get in.

Also the quality. We've replaced award winning venues with clubs that were never actually completed to original specification. Quality out, cheap and nasty in. The inevitable consequence of an environment which lacks any real certainty of being allowed to operate the business in the long term.

A 3am lockout, whilst well intentioned, combined with smoke free laws has compounded the capacity problem. The great rush to get back in by 3am and of course no going out for food, to smoke etc afterwards unless you're going home.

But if you are going home then it's either join the taxi queue or walk. Public transport basically doesn't exist at that time of night and doesn't run directly to the area anyway - and it's a walk up hill all the way to the bus station (though it's not that far).

And number four. The other big one that I'm really not sure of the impact. It was this one that lead me to leave the question "open" here and just see if it came up. Illegal drugs. 10 years ago it was pretty uncommon to come across anyone here on drugs, especially anything harder than home grown dope. Many locals still see drug use as "a Sydney and Melbourne problem" for that very reason. But the reality now is that you need only open your eyes on the waterfront to find someone under the influence of a pill or two.

What impact the drugs have on violence is something I really don't know. But I do know that it is the most blatantly obvious thing that "changed" in recent times. It's gone from unusual to mainstream amongst the clubbing age group.

And of course all the other things like increasing acceptance of violence etc that others mentioned.

My real question though is whether or not there is a viable solution?

1am closing is being proposed by some but I'm not convinced. It wrecks the economics of a quality venue with high capital cost unless the owners serve ridiculous amounts of alcohol whilst open thus creating an incentive to only make things worse.

Surreal never did actually lose their license - they just closed because the 2am closing and only operating one night per week conditions imposed weren't profitable on a $3 - 4 million (so I'm told) investment.

Also it means an awful lot of people kicked out onto the streets all at once with nowhere to go and no viable means of getting home in reasonable time. The problems have always peaked around kick out time as it is, and that's with many having left earlier.

So I really don't know. I'm starting to think that just standing back, watching the whole waterfront clubs thing implode and that then ending up with some new, more geographically dispersed clubs opening might be the best solution after all since it at least disperses the people. ???

 

[JeSSica WaBBit]

Hey Smurf I can assure you that the violence is not related to people popping Ecstasy pills.

Sure, some of the other drugs may contribute but Ecstasy does not make people violent, its alcohol mate!

Not sure if you have a problem down there with harder drugs?

It’s the numpty factor, its not only in your area, silly twats are everywhere, they love their booze and become violent when they have had too much of the stuff.................combine that with the other factors you have mentioned and it’s a recipe for disaster.

Neanderthal Numpties, they are the bane of my existence on this planet. I reckon we need to start culling them as quickly as possible, take a couple of rubbish compactors around the city in the early hours and just clean the place up. Straight into the back of the truck and into a handy land fill site.

I doubt anyone would even know they are missing?

JW

 

[Rafa]

one half of me says this....

pretty much the problem starts with the systematic removal of respect for the authority of
1. parents
2. the elders
3. the mum in the household who word was final
4. the dad in the household (who melted out the punishment in case 3 didn't work)
5. the school teachers
6. the rule of law

then of course there is the highly sexually charged nature of the modern nightclub, as a result of the combination of
1. behaviours / attire of women
2. expectations of men, from internet
3. drugs / alcohol
leads to increased testosterone levels...

you take this increase in testosterone levels, not in isolation, BUT COMBINE it with the lack of respect for the 6 elements mentioned at the start... and you have a receipe for violence

the other half of me says this...

there are 6 billion people in the world, and the way we have been railing against the natural phenomenon of survival of the fittest/smartest for a while now... , means we have a lot of 'unfit' people wandering around the planet... combine that with modern communication techniques, hearing or being part of such things is quite easy... in fact, i am surprised it doesn't happen more often

as you can see, i am well confused...!

 

[roland]

I don't think it's the alcohol, or drugs - they have always been there. I believe it is more to do with the internet and mobile phones which empower the younger ones to communicate and disemminate ideas and information - often without the parents knowing.

Smack someone in the head, record it with your mobile phone, post it on Utube and you're a hero.

How hard would it be today to organise a riot - look at Cronulla, 10 years ago you would have been busy on the phone for hours just get a few mates together. Now you can post something on the net and have a million people reading within minutes.

Being at home used to keep you isolated from the outside world, now it is a breeding place for kids to isolate themselves from their parents (SMS, email, forums etc). I used to have to ask for permission to use the home phone - a least advise my parents I was going to.

The internet has also opened up the nasty side of the world to the current generation - there's close to nothing that you can't find once you learn where to look - and it's instant.

My

 

[megla]

Without any disrespect intended - most of you are grasping at straws with little current real life experience or research.

I can speak with authority on the issue because I work in the security arena in a hotel. Plus I researched the role of security in hotels (bouncers) before becoming one.

irresponsible serving of alcohol

This is the most important aspect of the issue. Drinking in moderation turns normal people in relaxed normal people. Increasing that intoxication - as I have noticed - takes people down one of two tracks; they either become very happy friendly drunks (the majority) or they become aggressive violent drunks.

In the hotel where I work, the instant we notice a person becoming the later, they are given free water only or offered the door BEFORE it becomes a problem. That is the responsible service of alcohol in action and has made our hotel one of the safest around.

Nearby is a club where they are not so strict on service and they have plenty of problems - to the point where their license is under review.

 

[roland]

Without any disrespect intended - most of you are grasping at straws with little current real life experience or research.

I can speak with authority on the issue because I work in the security arena in a hotel. Plus I researched the role of security in hotels (bouncers) before becoming one.



This is the most important aspect of the issue. Drinking in moderation turns normal people in relaxed normal people. Increasing that intoxication - as I have noticed - takes people down one of two tracks; they either become very happy friendly drunks (the majority) or they become aggressive violent drunks.

In the hotel where I work, the instant we notice a person becoming the later, they are given free water only or offered the door BEFORE it becomes a problem. That is the responsible service of alcohol in action and has made our hotel one of the safest around.

Nearby is a club where they are not so strict on service and they have plenty of problems - to the point where their license is under review.

I would be more inclined in thinking the "irresponsible drinking of alcohol" - one wonders where their brains are, we are not talking about children anymore. I would be happy to see clubs and pubs closed by midnight, increase the minimum drinking age to 21, pull out the pokies

 

[moXJO]

Hey Smurf I can assure you that the violence is not related to people popping Ecstasy pills.

Sure, some of the other drugs may contribute but Ecstasy does not make people violent, its alcohol mate!

JW

Ive been in clubs many a time where everyone is poping eggs and their still violent.Its not drugs its not alcohol its just D*ckheads that get more balls after they use either.