Labor's carbon tax lie

[drsmith]

Regardless of the merits of the case, the government has been highly dishonest in its execution.

For this reason alone, it should argue it's case and put it to the people as the Coalition did with the GST.

To do otherwise with such a major policy only illustrates the contempt the current government for the people it supposedly represents.

If there is indeed a need for change, is the best strategy to lead by implementing a strategy that, in isolation, only accounts for such a small proportion of carbon dioxide emmissions. By doing so, the worlds largest energy producers might just sit on their hands and happily watch us go over the economic cliff. That, I would suggest, was Andrew Bolt's point.

 

[bellenuit]

The reason why there's no reply to the question of 'how many degree's our carbon tax will lower the earth's temp?' is because it's fatuous. The Question thoughtful people all over the world are asking is how much, temp, will it rise if we go on with business as usual?

If that is the question thoughtful people all over the world are asking then they are really not as thoughtful as you think. For example, let's say the answer to their question is 1 degree C in the next 50 years. What does that say about the merits or otherwise of a carbon tax? Zilch. They need to also be able to answer the question: "how much less will the rate rise be if we impose a carbon tax at $X per ton", which is the question the not so thoughtful (your description) are asking.

If the answer to the latter question is 1 degree C less in the next 50 years, then they have stopped the perceived warming. If the answer is 0 degrees less (or even fractionally more), then the carbon tax is doing nothing or perhaps making things worse.

Most thinking people expect the real answer to the question to be something like 0.0001 degrees C less if we have a carbon tax. Which, though an improvement, is a pointless exercise considering the negatives that the tax brings.

Without the answer to the not so thoughtful people's question, the answer to the thoughtful people's question doesn't provide any useful information regarding whether we should have a tax on CO2 or not.

 

[Julia]

The following is a quote from "The Australian"'s article about the new poll:

Labor's plunge in the latest Newspoll comes as former prime minister Kevin Rudd last night admitted he made the wrong call when he decided to shelve the federal government's emissions trading scheme last year - a move that ultimately led to his demise as Labor leader.

In an extraordinary breach of cabinet confidentiality, Mr Rudd told ABC's Q&A he was trying to find a compromise in a divided room, with some cabinet members arguing the ETS should be scrapped for good.

Asked why he delayed the scheme until 2013 despite calling climate change the greatest moral challenge of our time, Mr Rudd said he made a mistake. "The judgment I made then was wrong."

It seems Mr Rudd has moved into Stage Two of his plan to discredit his colleagues (remember the leaks during the campaign?) and to elevate himself to being the reincarnated leader when, inevitably, Ms Gillard falls into the oblivion she is courting with her dogged insistence on the tax and her astonishingly insulting remarks about the Greens on whom she so depends.

Mr Rudd's breach of cabinet confidentiality is unlikely to be well received by the rest of the Party and goes to the disunity that is rightly always described as 'death' by any political party.

 

[sails]

The following is a quote from "The Australian"'s article about the new poll:



It seems Mr Rudd has moved into Stage Two of his plan to discredit his colleagues (remember the leaks during the campaign?) and to elevate himself to being the reincarnated leader when, inevitably, Ms Gillard falls into the oblivion she is courting with her dogged insistence on the tax and her astonishingly insulting remarks about the Greens on whom she so depends.

Mr Rudd's breach of cabinet confidentiality is unlikely to be well received by the rest of the Party and goes to the disunity that is rightly always described as 'death' by any political party.

I'm not sure if the Australian article suggested that Rudd's remarks on Q&A affected this latest poll as the polling took place between 1st and 3rd of April which would have been concluded prior to the airing of Q&A last night.

However, Rudd's comments may cause labor polls to fall further - only time will tell...

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/04/05/1226033/691891-110405-newspoll.pdf

 

[Julia]

I wasn't meaning to suggest Mr Rudd's remarks last night were reflected in the Poll, Sails.

Obviously they couldn't have been.

My observation was just an aside about my belief that Mr Rudd has a clear plan for the road ahead, and last night's remarks would constitute one of the steps in this plan.

I've always thought his ultimate plan was that seat at the UN, but I'm revising this in favour of the joy he would experience if he could wreak on his colleagues and the Labor Party his revenge for their humiliation of him. Imo this would be greater if he were to be reinstated as PM, following a sustained period of them apologising profusely for their stupidity in throwing him out, and beseeching him to come back and save The Party and The Country.

At this stage, Kev would carefully conceal his smile of triumph, shed a tear or two, and humbly allow himself to be persuaded back as The Saviour.

 

[sails]

Julia, I remember Oakeshott saying some time ago that he made deals to support Gillard and that a change of leadership could be a deal breaker in his support for labor. So, any potential leader is going to have to get the support of the indies or the new leader might not be PM for long.

That said, I think all the indies would actually support any labor leader and unlikely to support the coalition, so it is probably a bluff. So whether labor will take the risk of changing leaders remains to be seen. But, on the other hand, if they leave Gillard there they also risk a huge voter backlash, IMO.

 

[Logique]

...beseeching him to come back and save The Party and The Country. At this stage, Kev would carefully conceal his smile of triumph, shed a tear or two, and humbly allow himself to be persuaded back as The Saviour.

Indeed Julia. How very Caesar Augustus it all seems. The Mob: 'We entreat you to the dictatorship Caesar!' Octavian: 'No, for a second time no!'

 

[trainspotter]

*guffaw*

 

[drsmith]

Julia, I remember Oakeshott saying some time ago that he made deals to support Gillard and that a change of leadership could be a deal breaker in his support for labor. So, any potential leader is going to have to get the support of the indies or the new leader might not be PM for long.

That said, I think all the indies would actually support any labor leader and unlikely to support the coalition, so it is probably a bluff. So whether labor will take the risk of changing leaders remains to be seen. But, on the other hand, if they leave Gillard there they also risk a huge voter backlash, IMO.

They won't support the Coalition under Abbott, full stop.

This is Tony Windsor's take on the carbon tax,

Skip the carbon tax and go straight to an emissions trading scheme. Seriously. Instead of imposing the tax for three to five years from July next year as proposed, she just brings in cap and trade. Lie deleted.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...unning-than-nats/story-e6frgd0x-1226033575367

Not so fast Mr Windsor.

Tony Windsor should revisit the 7:30 Report transcript/video linked in the first post of this thread.

 

[sails]

They won't support the Coalition under Abbott, full stop....

I don't think the indies would support the Coalition no matter who is the leader. Is this Gillard now playing on the indies discontent with the coalition and using them in an effort to get Abbott removed? It does appear that labor are pretty anxious to the point of desperation to be rid of him as opposition leader.

And I think many would prefer to have a new election to hopefully have one party or the other leading with a majority instead of this mis-matched patchwork which is fraying badly around the edges.

 

[Julia]

I don't think the indies would support the Coalition no matter who is the leader. Is this Gillard now playing on the indies discontent with the coalition and using them in an effort to get Abbott removed? It does appear that labor are pretty anxious to the point of desperation to be rid of him as opposition leader.

I must be missing something here. How is Ms Gillard 'playing on the independents' discontent' in an attempt to get Mr Abbott removed?
I haven't seen anything which points to this recently.
I think they're more focused on protecting their own positions which are looking more tenuous by the day.

And if I were a Labor strategist (what an extraordinary thought!) I'd be telling Ms Gillard to get sorted with her partners, the Greens, and get her own house in order.
If she did that, and managed to present any half decent rationale for her carbon tax to the electorate, she wouldn't need to worry about the Opposition at all.

 

[sails]

I must be missing something here. How is Ms Gillard 'playing on the independents' discontent' in an attempt to get Mr Abbott removed?
I haven't seen anything which points to this recently.

It's in the article below, Julia. Maybe Windsor is tongue in cheek, but ditching Abbott for Turnbull is what we constantly hear from labor supporters, so reading this article made me think that Windsor is now on the band wagon to get the carbon tax friendly Turnbull back into leadership to help Gillard. Although, Windsor also states that he still may not give it his support. I think pigs might fly before any of the labor supporting indies would give support to the Coalition regardless of their leader. I think they have made their allegiences very clear.

More here from the Australian: Wily Windsor more cunning than Nats

Skip the carbon tax and go straight to an emissions trading scheme. Seriously. Instead of imposing the tax for three to five years from July next year as proposed, she just brings in cap and trade. Lie deleted.

The federal independent MP also has a simple if mischievous solution for Coalition members who invite him to ditch Gillard for Tony Abbott: ditch Abbott for Malcolm Turnbull.

The wily Windsor will not say if either outcome will win his support or guarantee it. What he knows is that politicians in tricky situations always find escape routes.

 

[Logique]

...made me think that Windsor is now on the band wagon to get the carbon tax friendly Turnbull back into leadership to help Gillard. Although, Windsor also states that he still may not give it his support. I think pigs might fly before any of the labor supporting indies would give support to the Coalition regardless of their leader...

That's my take on it as well. That they want Abbott (mentored by Howard) gone, is the surest sign that he is scoring points on them. A change of leader won't bring the indeps back to the Coalition, now or ever.

 

[sails]

Here are two polls on carbon tax. One conducted by industry and the other commissioned by the greens. On the surface, they appear to be conflicting, however if compensation was removed, I think the answer would be a clear cut "no" in the second article. It was a bit sneakily worded to get the answers they wanted, IMO.

Both articles from the HeraldSun:

Industry, Greens polls apart on carbon

A POLL conducted for Australian industry has found two-thirds of people fear a carbon tax will cost jobs, contrasting with results of another poll released overnight.

and this is the poll commissioned by the greens:

Gillard's carbon tax winning voters, but with conditions

TWO-THIRDS of voters say they support a carbon tax if all the revenue is spent on compensation for households and business, according to a new Galaxy Poll.

Bold is mine, but highlights that this is hardly an endorsement for the tax when it is on the conditiion that ALL the revenue is spent on compensation.

What's the point of having the tax in the first place? It makes absolutely no sense.

And how will these people feel if compensation is another broken promise and their hard earned dollars are doing practically nothing for carbon reduction?

 

[white_goodman]

if we wanna go forward with green technology why dont we use what the future fund was designed for?

oh thats right sweet 180billion of debt, thats what happens when you have unionists and the virtually unemployable running an economy...

 

[Logique]

SBS Insight was not unexpectedly a put-up job. Although I like Jennie Brockie.
SBS is even further to the left than the ABC. Replayed 1:30pm Friday if you can stand it. Sneering and smug Garnaut and Milne. Near enough un-watchable. Hint, don't have a brick in your hand when watching this program.

Here's a question - If I'm renting a third-storey apartment in a ten-storey building, where do I erect my solar cells, so as to avoid the mains electricity price rises?

 

[white_goodman]

SBS Insight was not unexpectedly a put-up job. Although I like Jennie Brockie.
SBS is even further to the left than the ABC. Replayed 1:30pm Friday if you can stand it. Sneering and smug Garnaut and Milne. Near enough un-watchable. Hint, don't have a brick in your hand when watching this program.

Here's a question - If I'm renting a third-storey apartment in a ten-storey building, where do I erect my solar cells, so as to avoid the mains electricity price rises?

im gonna record it, and proceed to ridicule the views of my sydney uni arts student gf as i force her to watch it

 

[moXJO]

im gonna record it, and proceed to ridicule the views of my sydney uni arts student gf as i force her to watch it

It would be more productive to introduce her to girl on girl pr0n. And a damn sight easy to convince her on

 

[IFocus]

That's my take on it as well. That they want Abbott (mentored by Howard) gone, is the surest sign that he is scoring points on them. A change of leader won't bring the indeps back to the Coalition, now or ever.

Would think Labors best advantage is keeping Abbott losing him and getting a moderate would be fatal.

Abbott knows this and is trying to tear the goverment down, 18 months out from an election I think there will be a move on Abbott to ensure victory as the state elections keep pointing out.

Abbott out of the way = Labor is toast.

IMHO

 

[Julia]

SBS Insight was not unexpectedly a put-up job. Although I like Jennie Brockie.
SBS is even further to the left than the ABC. Replayed 1:30pm Friday if you can stand it. Sneering and smug Garnaut and Milne. Near enough un-watchable. Hint, don't have a brick in your hand when watching this program.

So agree about Garnaut and Milne. The latter is almost forgivable (despite how I loathe her) because it's clear that she stands for the extreme Greens thing. But Garnaut is supposed to be neutral and independent. He is smug and supercilious, probably annoys me more than any other single person around (and this even includes Ms Gillard and Mr Swann.)
And let's remember that Prof Garnaut is an economist, fergawdsake, not any sort of scientist, let alone a so called climate scientist.

Logique, I actually find "Insight" more balanced than Q&A. Perhaps this is because Jenny Brockie offers at least the impression of objectivity. Tony Jones doesn't even pretend to do this.